An actual U.S. special forces attack inside Syria

[Battlefront.com]

To help meade95 out with his research (since he Googled the wrong topic), here's one of the latest reports on the health of US standing in the world:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/II25Ak01.html

Here is an extract from the report cited in the above article, with my highlight (the report itself is apparently a purchase thing only):

The world in 2008 will be doubly consumed by the politics of parochialism - sectarian rivalries and religious disputes - and by the maneuvers of balance-of-power politics - alliance politics and arms races ... In Europe, the United States and Asia, big powers will talk to each other about role, status, alliance, deterrence, containment, and balance of power. In the meantime, groups around the world will fight those states and alliances ...

In this "non-polar world", the space for aggressive non-state actors to advance their particularist strategic aims has grown. In 2008, managing nuclear proliferation and terrorism will remain the priorities.

But the unsettled relations, rivalries and shifting strengths of the powers that see themselves as custodians of the state system will make the necessary coordination of approaches to these threats immensely hard.

Note that this quote is not talking about AQ because it is just one player in a larger drama.

And a 2007 survey, which was presented to Congress, found that America's standing is at a record low. But at least we're regarded better than Israel, North Korea, Iran, and a few others. Heck, even the French are regarded more highly, which should really irk US Conservatives And this one, also from 2007 which shows how well regarded the US is world wide. There is a poll of the ME out there, conducted every year, that I can't seem to find. I can't remember who conducts it but it's got a long track record to compare results against.

The point of all this is that it's fodder for the Islamist movements. Not just in the Middle East, but also Asia and in particular Europe. Also, most disturbingly, from within the US borders. The recent plots that were broken up came from those places that are traditionally most closely allied with the US. Flaunting international law whenever it suits the US' purposes is definitely high up on the "really naughty things to do" list for most countries. Even us. Just imagine the American reaction to a Mexican government strike on US soil. It would make the last time we invaded their country on a flimsy pretext look quaint by comparison.

Steve

[meade95]

Yup, it did! "Mommy, I was playing with fire and the couch caught fire. I've mostly cleaned it up, so can I have a raise in my allowance now?"

But meade95, do you understand that you've documented polls about AQ and not Islamic radicalism or even a comparison of the favorability rating of the US now compared to pre-Iraq? So I congratulate you on posting some real information for a change, but you aren't posting relevant information. We all know AQ is "on the ropes", largely because it has decentralized itself due, in part, to crackdown on it. But since AQ itself is, and has always been, a symptom of the problem and not the problem itself, the lack of AQ in and of itself means nothing more than AQ is not as big of a factor now.

To use the rapist analogy again, it's akin to bust one of the nastiest serial rapists around this year. Rape has not been eradicated and tomorrow an even worse rapist could show up.

Steve

You're a joke - When did the notion of "America's approval rating" become part of the equation of wheather we are having success in the WOT or not.....That was never even mentioned ...but view of AQ and radical Islam were.....And I provided information to show such...

Regarding America..... Envy is always going to be there.....it is a natural instinct..... The notion that America has ever been loved around the world (outside of times during WWI and WWII) is hogwash....and painting a romantic past that never really was....

But furthermore, the discussion was about the muslim street (or portions of it) turning against AQ and radical Islam....and polls show this is happening..... Iraq shows this is happening....

But go on once again with your lastest new straw-man....Now about whether America has a growing or declining "favorability" rating. Please. What a joke.

[ChrisND]

The notion that America has ever been loved around the world (outside of times during WWI and WWII) is hogwash....and painting a romantic past that never really was....

Compared to the present, some parts are pretty effin romantic. You seem to like polls yourself, so sometime you should out international polls about America... it isn't pretty.

You're a joke - When did the notion of "America's approval rating" become part of the equation of wheather we are having success in the WOT or not........

I can't believe you actually need this explained to you. I'll put this in kiddy terms: if other countries (or at least important countries) don't like us, then it will be a heck of a lot harder getting them to do stuff for us, or cooperate with us, now won't it? Unless you think we should just use muscle every time we want our way.

Envy is always going to be there.....it is a natural instinct.....

That's it, I am just not going to take you seriously anymore.

[meade95]

meade95,

Back to the oil thing... would you like to revise your incorrect statements about how much good ANWAR drilling will do or how long it will take to make it happen? The difference between someone with a political agenda and someone with an open mind has a lot to do with how that person responds to his "facts" being challenged. So far you've not scored very well. Not that you care, I'm sure, because those with closed minds already know that they are right. Right?

Steve

Yes. Back to the oil thing. You're still wrong. Drilling in Anwar and off our coast will have an impact on the global oil markets. And in particularly here in the States. Your notion that it will take (what is it, 10 years) isn't accurate.........And fruthermore this is the same lame argument for not doing such 10 years ago.....is that it would take 10 years so why do it.... (hell, why try and fight for new cures or procedures for Cancer....if they can't save all current patients right now today....it will take too long).

Reality is it is beyond foolishness that we don't allow for more drilling in the States, AK and off our coasts...... And no one is saying that in and of itself is the full solution....but it is without question part of any reasonable solution. Becoming serious about drilling for oil in the States would have a dramatic impact on the speculative side of the oil equation as well. That is reality. There would be much greater downside for those looking to speculate up....with the risk that more U.S. oil would be coming to market in the future....

You are simply unwilling to be intellectually honest on issue after issue here.....while hiding by the curtain of "I'm not politically bias, others are".... They hell you aren't.

It is foolishness that we have not built a new refinery in over 20+ years (because of enviro laws..... While at the same time mandating all sorts of new reformulations standards). It is foolishness that we have been for 20 + years putting all sorts of restrictions and regulations on our energy supplies....... Yet the same people supporting all these restrictions are typically the same people upset about increased prices for such...and the effect they have on an economy (I.e. they're just another form of a manufactured cost / tax that need not be there)...

Drilling in ANWAR and off our coasts would do plenty of good. Much more so than not You're flat out wrong ....and once again unwilling to even be intellectually honest on this point alone.

[meade95]

I can't believe you actually need this explained to you. I'll put this in kiddy terms: if other countries (or at least important countries) don't like us, then it will be a heck of a lot harder getting them to do stuff for us, or cooperate with us, now won't it? Unless you think we should just use muscle every time we want our way.

That's it, I am just not going to take you seriously anymore.

Hmm. People don't like us? Didn't Germany recently elect a more pro-American Gov't..... What about France? Hmm, an extremely pro-American Gov't...all the while rejecting those running with more Anti-American views. What about South Korea? That's right, ditto them as well. This list could go on. Even Italy's new PM speaks affirming of the United States and the need to work with us (outside of Iraq).......

Reality is you seem to get all your news from media types with agendas. Yet in the adult world not all nations are going to agree all the time...and that doesn't mean you're no longer allies because of those situations.... by and large American's allies are still our allies (with new one's emerging within Eastern Europe)....

Regarding your last comment. Yawn. Grow up.

[costard]

Hmm. People don't like us? Didn't Germany recently elect a more pro-American Gov't..... What about France? Hmm, an extremely pro-American Gov't...all the while rejecting those running with more Anti-American views. What about South Korea? That's right, ditto them as well. This list could go on. Even Italy's new PM speaks affirming of the United States and the need to work with us (outside of Iraq).......

Reality is you seem to get all your news from media types with agendas. Yet in the adult world not all nations are going to agree all the time...and that doesn't mean you're no longer allies because of those situations.... by and large American's allies are still our allies (with new one's emerging within Eastern Europe)....

Regarding your last comment. Yawn. Grow up.

You forgot Japan. Now, what do all these countries have in common? - hey, they were conquered by the US. (South Korea was the bit of the Korean peninsular ceded to US interests after the defeat of Imperial Japan.) Interesting coincidence, no? Not really - the financial superstructure of the west is falling into line where the populace of the nations are kept in ignorance of their true owners.

France has just lost it's way a little - when they see the Brits do something, they have to do the opposite.

Nobody envies power - they desire it, bow to it, fight for it and lose it.

[FAI]

Alan,

......We can probably assume the Syrians are royally pissed - will this raid make Syria a better or worse place for insurgents to operate? ........

I think this is the most important question that needs answering. Will the raid force Syria to put a tighter lid on the insurgents operation, or did it piss them off enough to help the insurgents even more openly, if only just to stick it to the US?

[Bigduke6]

Meade95,

I find this comment of yours intriguing:

Reality is you seem to get all your news from media types with agendas.

Technically of course, the plural of "agenda" is "agendae." It's a Latin thing. But that's not what made me curious.

What's got me wondering is, if a person shouldn't get news from the media, then where should he get it? Color me confused.

As regards US international popularity, I think you're quite right that friendship between nations is pretty overrated, what drives international affairs are perceived interests.

But if the goal is repressing a disorganized worldwide movement by angry Muslims to attack the world's major Christian nations, particularly the US, then surely it is in the US interest at least not to spit on the idea of worlwide support.

Also, I would be curious to know which emerging Eastern European nations you believe to be the US' strong allies.

[Runaway!!!]

That was an intense read. Just stop being a rationalist and just admit we're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here. Although it was fun to read your epic reasoning, it won't undo the countless hours of watching Fox propaganda and reading Ann Coulters books. :-P

[Clavicula_Nox]

And this just happened all on its own, right.....Not because of our offensive actions. Not because we took the fight to them....not because AQ put Iraq as the front line of the WOT...and lost big time.

AQ was the most aggressive attacking terrorists organization (on the U.S.) in the world in from the 90's unitl 2001..... today, look how you are speaking about them..... There is hardly much left of them, they're not that important, they're not able to carry out operations, etc,etc..... Thank you.

I don't see what that has to do with my post.

[Pak_43]

If the US want to have a meaningful influence in the ME then they really really need to be seen by the ME countries as something other than a resolute defender of Israel's less than ideal foreign policy.

This single factor provides all of the needed momentum to those ME governments who want to play to their populations distrust of the US.

I simply do not understand why the US does not want to parley co-operation from the ME states with regards to Islamic fundamentalism against changing their stance with regard to Israeli occupation of the West bank, it's the single biggest card the US has in the region and failing to deal with this issue is hampering any attempts to restore US credibility in the region (IMHO)

[Battlefront.com]

meade95,

Yes. Back to the oil thing. You're still wrong. Drilling in Anwar and off our coast will have an impact on the global oil markets. And in particularly here in the States. Your notion that it will take (what is it, 10 years) isn't accurate

Cite your sources please since I cited mine on Page 4. You will note (well, probably you will not) that I cited direct studies of the ANWAR oil predictions from the source that all proposed "drill, baby drill" policy is being made from. I did not cite some "lefty" source that would just be dismissed out of hand by you. Nope, all the numbers are there in black and white for any person, who is interested enough, to read. Apparently you aren't interested?

As for the rest of your disconnected and unsupported assertions, others have already picked up on most of it. One the one hand you're saying that we're winning the hearts and minds of the ME, then on the other hand you say that people's opinions about us don't count because they are extremely low. The US used to rank near the top of the standings in the same polls prior to Iraq, so how do you account for that? People are more envious of us now than before?

It really is impossible to have an intellectually valid discussion with someone who only responds to facts with irrational and empty statements. So, if you want to be taken seriously as a Human with a functioning brain, rather than someone who is brainwashed, change your debate methodology. Calling people names and typing things which have no connection to reality absolutely don't help your cause.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Pak 43,

If the US want to have a meaningful influence in the ME then they really really need to be seen by the ME countries as something other than a resolute defender of Israel's less than ideal foreign policy.

This single factor provides all of the needed momentum to those ME governments who want to play to their populations distrust of the US.

I simply do not understand why the US does not want to parley co-operation from the ME states with regards to Islamic fundamentalism against changing their stance with regard to Israeli occupation of the West bank, it's the single biggest card the US has in the region and failing to deal with this issue is hampering any attempts to restore US credibility in the region (IMHO)

It's a complex thing, that's for sure. As with many political issues, there are various groups within the US that have sometimes conflicting or unrelated agendas overall, but in some places they overlap. When these overlaps are important to each individual group, there becomes a natural and difficult to combat support system for whatever that common ideal is. Here in my rural state we sometimes have "sportsmans" groups allying themselves with fairly radical "environmentalists" to combat a commercial development or a new regulation of some sort. We even now have a pretty strong coalition between some fishermen and marine conservationists, for example, because both are concerned about stock collapse due to over fishing. So on and so forth.

From all the years that this question has puzzled me (and believe me, it has), there is strong evidence that there are about 4 strong movements within the US that have banded together to form the almost untouchable pro-Israel policy. I'm going to grossly boil them down for the sake of everybody's eyeballs:

1. "Imperialists" - these are various lobbies, political and corporate, who wish to exploit the oil in the Middle East. The best way to do that, in their view, is to keep the area largely destabilized and weak so that corrupt governments can be bent to their will. One of the best ways to do this is to keep Israel as a spoiler. If any country gets too big for its britches, they are bound to go after Israel, which in turn will knock the country down a peg or two so that it is more pliable.

2. "Super Right Wing Christians" - I used to disbelieve this was much of a factor, but sadly I have discovered in the past 8 years that it is a significant factor in the whole mix. The bottom line is that in order for the Second Coming to happen the Holyland needs to be controlled by the Jews, who are basically its caretaker. This is black and white Bible stuff that anybody can check up on. So any threat to Israel, and the Jews, is by definition a threat against Jesus' chance of Resurrection in their lifetime. This is why some Christian groups are spending tons of money to repatriate "lost tribes" from the most bizarre places on Earth. And other examples. I say again, I used to discount this but the evidence that it is a significant factor is overwhelming. And when asked, the Christian groups involved are not shameful about their actions and therefore it's not a hidden agenda. How they achieve it may or may not be.

3. "Guilt" - there are a lot of Jews in the US and they are very influential in American society, far beyond their % of the population. They are not shy about exercising their considerable influence on public opinion and policy when they feel Israel is threatened. They are here reminding everybody what happened the last time an overt threat (and Islam, on the whole, is a VERY overt threat to the State of Israel) was ignored. Non-Jewish Americans do not want another Jewish Holocaust to happen on their watch. They don't want any Holocausts, like Bosnia and Darfur, to happen either. However, there isn't enough overlap with other national interests to make the sort of case for those areas as with Israel.

4. "Racism" - by and large the American public's opinion of Israeli culture and education is extremely high. Almost the exact opposite is true when it comes to Arabs in particular, but Muslims in general. A recent example of this can be seen with the mainstream accusations that Obama is a Muslim and therefore unfit for office. Imagine what would happen if there were attack ads saying that he was Christian or Jewish? Exactly So when push comes to shove, and the Israelis are being shoved, the natural tendency is to side with Israel.

And if anybody thinks that Israel doesn't know all this, and hasn't figured out how to leverage it to its advantage, is smoking something illegal

Steve

[Pak_43]

Steve,

Agree entirely. However given the supposed priority within the US establishment of stemming the advance of Islamic fundamentalism their unwillingness to even address this problem internally, to allow them to move forward with a foreign policy that stands a chance of winning support from Muslim states in the ME, is pretty incomprehensible. From a ME political perspective the US attempts to win influence in the ME must come across as very simplistic and extremely unsubtle. But I guess as someone once said, if your only tool is a hammer then every problem looks suspiciously like a nail...

Oh and I can recommend "The Utility of Force" (The art of war in the modern world) by General Rupert Smith. He was commander of the UN forces in Bosnia, was GOC Northern Ireland 96-99 and then served as DSACEUR in NATO. It not only pokes several holes in the way modern armed forces are being used, but has some excellent thought provoking potential solutions...

[salwon]

Just look at Ireland for an example of what works and doesn't work when fighting terrorists:

Didn't work: civilian murder <-> retaliation murder

Did work: infrastructure development and job creation.

Once bored young men have jobs, they don't really have a reason to kill anyone anymore. And it didn't take very long to turn it around, either.

[Clavicula_Nox]

Just look at Ireland for an example of what works and doesn't work when fighting terrorists:

Didn't work: civilian murder <-> retaliation murder

Did work: infrastructure development and job creation.

Once bored young men have jobs, they don't really have a reason to kill anyone anymore. And it didn't take very long to turn it around, either.

That's just too obvious it couldn't possibly be part of the answer!

[MikeGER]

Technically of course, the plural of "agenda" is "agendae." It's a Latin thing...

on a side note

technically of course "agenda" is already the plural of "agendum" which means 'thing to do' derived as a gerundive from the verb

"agere" = to do

Gents, every time i read the CMSF-Forum i am delighted with the quality of discussions going on and i learn something new, with topics spreading from international affairs down to the latest equipment-upgrade recommended for personal use when getting deployed.

salus ubi consilium !

PS: bets being taken, how long will it take until the first 'The Cross Border Raid - Scenario' surface at CMMoDs?

[Alan8325]

PS: bets being taken, how long will it take until the first 'The Cross Border Raid - Scenario' surface at CMMoDs?

Doesn't sound like a very exciting scenario. Substitute the SOF teams with an elite MOUT squad with "+2" everything vs. a few fighters, probably less than squad strength, and regular experience, at best.

[hammelman]

Meade,

You won't do to well here criticizing peoples intelligence. This is a group of people whose intelligence far exceeds the standard curve. Making a point and having an intellectual conversation is not a bad thing. Calling people biased because their opinion differs from yours is hypocritical. If I've learned anything in life its the guy who says that everybody else is crazy that is generally the crazy person. Thats not to say that adage is 100% true all the time, but in this case i think it stands true. There is NO question Steve is one smart cookie. Please don't use your bullying antics here, they will not work, nor impress anyone.

[meade95]

Meade,

You won't do to well here criticizing peoples intelligence. This is a group of people whose intelligence far exceeds the standard curve. Making a point and having an intellectual conversation is not a bad thing. Calling people biased because their opinion differs from yours is hypocritical. If I've learned anything in life its the guy who says that everybody else is crazy that is generally the crazy person. Thats not to say that adage is 100% true all the time, but in this case i think it stands true. There is NO question Steve is one smart cookie. Please don't use your bullying antics here, they will not work, nor impress anyone.

Do yourself a favor - Read from the start - It has been Steve (BFC) that has constantly talked about / tried to point the "bias" finger (political finger, of which Steve has none of, he has assured us)......at myself. It was Steve he started this line of discussion.

In turn pointing out bias publications or the political bias of some sources in more than fair game. And completey contributes to any intellectually honest discussion that is trying to take place.

For being whatever type of "smart cookie" you take Steve for.....Nothing does away with the false premise he started with (near the top of this thread - which stated "the War on Terrorism will flounder and fail if the concept of winning is limited to killing the enemy or even taking over its territory")...

That is a flat out wrong / false premise. With the discussion continuing from there. It is a strawman and Steve was called out on it.......He then took the position of trying to call me political and with an political agenda for taking him to task on this completely flase premise of how the WOT/Iraq has been conducted.

[Clavicula_Nox]

Do yourself a favor - Read from the start - It has been Steve (BFC) that has constantly talked about / tried to point the "bias" finger (political finger, of which Steve has none of, he has assured us)......at myself.

In turn pointing out bias publications or the political bias of some sources in more than fair game. And completey contributes to any intellectually honest discussion that is trying to take place.

You should calm down and take it easy; life is not as serious as you're taking it.

[Clavicula_Nox]

That being, paraphrasing, the only thing we are doing in Iraq / WOT is killing bad guys...with no real other plan.

I don't think that's what he said; I'm pretty sure he, and the rest of us, were saying that can't be the only thing we're doing there.

[meade95]

I don't think that's what he said; I'm pretty sure he, and the rest of us, were saying that can't be the only thing we're doing there.

And that is a false premise, if the assumption is trying to be made that, that is all we (U.S. Gov't) were/are doing (or that is all we were ever trying to do).

The reality in both Iraq and Stan shows the treasure & blood America has been willing to sacrifice in order to do more than just "kill bad guys". We have invested tremendously in the peoples of these nations, in the notions of freedom and self-worth...and in seeing that we stand by these newly established Governments until they can stand on their own. Not even speaking to all of the infastructure projects we have helped with / built (and pressured other nations to forgive old loans too boot, in helping these two new countires trying to re-start themselves).

[Sgt Joch]

I presume you are being sarcastic.

The Karzai government is deeply corrupt and heavily involved in the drug trade. Much of the revival of the Taliban is a reflection of this. The Karzai government would not last 6 months if western troops stopped propping it up.

The Iraqi government is only waiting until US troops leave for a final settling of account with the Sunnis, the most likely result of which will a shiite dominated Iraq closely allied with Iran. This is the nightmare that Syria and Saudi Arabia dread, that they will be sucked in an Iraqi civil war to protect the sunni minority.

[Vark]

As a reader and occasional contributer to this website I have one question. Is this discussion getting to do anything more than allow the same entrenched positions to be restated ad-infinitum? Already one side is calling another biased and the other is saying they speak the truth, shoot me down please but, lots of heat but any light? These WOT/Israel good/bad debates end up too ofen as exercises in mental masturbation and I spent nearly a year living in Israel hearing these same arguments (not the WOT it was the eighties). Sorry for being Eyoreish but this whole subject seems to bring out the least pleasant attributes in people, how ever much one side berates the other for being idealogues and not accepting the 'truth'.

I Know of somebody, very, very high up (don't we all) and their take on all of this can be summarised as this. No one knows everything, very few know more than some, some know more than most and YOU will only find out after 40 years and even then you will only know 50%! I look forward to reading the Task force 88 official history and having a chuckle, thinking how wrong or right my theories were, that is if I get to that elderly state!