France Infantry

[Snow Leopard]

I hadn't ask that question for long time but I wonder in TOW why France infantry have only 6 men instead of 9 to 11 as two of men armed with only handgun plus only one man carry grenades in Fusilier. I feel like cheat if I edit all men carry all rifles and grenades. Also that smaller France infantry have value point 50 as similar to other bigger and heavy armed infantry. Why?

[crazyman56]

No idea realism?

[SG1]

Yes, realism may be the answer.

I do not know the squad order of battle for French infantry in '40. But I sure know it was not necessary the same as in other countries' armies and did evolve. And kept doing so after the war.

Editing may not be that much of cheating, especially if backed up by research... and of course provided you do not stuff each of your squads/sections with some 30 men.

[Tartari]

according to Stéphane Ferrard, "Les matériels de l'Armée de terre française", the rifle platoon (Groupe de combat) was made up of 12 men:

-a squad leader (sergent, chef de groupe) rifle

-an assistant squad leader (caporal) rifle

-an automatic rifleman (tireur) fm 24/29

-an assistant automatic rifleman "chargeur" pistol

-3 "pourvoyeurs" (ammo bearers) mousqueton (carbine)

-3 "voltigeurs" (rifleman) rifle

-1 "grenadier" (grenade launcher) rifle + tromblon v.b

[Snow Leopard]

according to Stéphane Ferrard, "Les matériels de l'Armée de terre française", the rifle platoon (Groupe de combat) was made up of 12 men:

-a squad leader (sergent, chef de groupe) rifle

-an assistant squad leader (caporal) rifle

-an automatic rifleman (tireur) fm 24/29

-an assistant automatic rifleman "chargeur" pistol

-3 "pourvoyeurs" (ammo bearers) mousqueton (carbine)

-3 "voltigeurs" (rifleman) rifle

-1 "grenadier" (grenade launcher) rifle + tromblon v.b

Great reply! how do I add extra men in mission editor? I tried to read and try left click as no luck. I am creating some missions which I can use them for offensive missions. Also, after I see your reply and I googled with word "Groupe de combat rifle platoon" and find good link http://enpointe.chez-alice.fr/di.html as more better data. I read and understand how too late to re-arm with better stuff like replace 1 VB launcher (that made old rifle too fragile to fire it) with 50mm grenade launcher as more other issues. unless if MOD make France to stay in game longer than 1940 then more interest to play it. I did creating a Finland army by use German army with captured Soviet weapons with some weapons edit to armed platoon correct.

[Arzok]

how do I add extra men in mission editor?

One possibility I have tried is to choose a squad from an other nation, and to change each soldier in french (name, arms...)

A bit long, but it works.

Except for campaign, for the next mission, the squas recover is former nationality :mad:

[John Kettler]

Tartari,

I think you just listed what Americans would call a "squad" and British and CW a "section." I believe a grouping composed of 3 of the unit you detail would form a "peloton" or platoon. Would expect it would have a support section attached, too.

This wargaming site confirms my suspicions. A peloton consists of 3 x Groupes de combat + a section of rifle grenadiers.

http://www.io.com/~beckerdo/games/FlamesOfWar/FrenchInf/index.html

This should prove very helpful, being groggy in the extreme.

http://enpointe.chez-alice.fr/di.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[SG1]

You are right, in France we call "section" the unit with some 30 to 40 men. The "section" is divided into several "groupes" of about 10 men. Then each "groupe" is divided into "équipes" of 4 men. The next subdivision is the "binôme", each individual soldier being teamed with another, the rule being one is never left alone.

Up the scale, 3 to 5 "sections" make up a "compagnie".

In the figures above I did not take into consideration command levels. As an example, a "groupe" is 2 "équipes" of 4 men + 1 sniper + 1 "chef de groupe" in command of the whole.

These definitions correspond to modern French infantry. However this kind of organisation derives from lessons learned during WW1 and applies to the WW2 French army, globally speaking, with differences explained by the weapons used (e.g. only light MG in WW2 while nowadays you would have MG paired with AT rocket-launcher).

To make things more complicated, in addition of originally French words having been absorbed in English but with slightly different meanings, some parts of the French armies stick to different names : for instance a British or US "platoon" corresponds to a French "section", but the French Gendarmerie would call the same unit a "peloton" - and you can see the link with "platoon". I even think our Gendarmes get it from being horse troops, originally, because our armour/cavalry boys also use "pelotons".

Same stuff for ranks, by the way. I would stick to "caporal" and "sergent" while a tanker would say "brigadier" and "maréchal des logis".

And for you English-speaker who would wonder how a "brigadier" can be associated to a mere "caporal", well as mentioned above, all these names come from the organisation of the French army of the XVIII century but have seen their actual meaning evolve differently depending of the country taking them over, including Germany... however you get things back in order if you consider the rank order of generals : brigade, major, leutenant (or Leutnant), colonel (or Oberst).

[John Kettler]

SG1,

Looks to me as though TOW is modeling only the assault element of the French Groupe de combat, rather than the whole thing. Must make fire and maneuver a real thrill, if so!

As for generals, the lieutenant general used to command all the King's armies.

Regards,

John Kettler

[SG1]

And then, after all, the King used to be the ultimate colonel, didn't he ?

We used to have a lieutenant-général waging war while the king was residing in Versailles as well.

1789 and the reorganisation under Napoleon kind of led to the original meaning of these ranks being lost in France... Personally, I came to a better understanding of them by reading about the organisation and tradition of the British army.

[Tartari]

Tartari,

I think you just listed what Americans would call a "squad" and British and CW a "section." I believe a grouping composed of 3 of the unit you detail would form a "peloton" or platoon. Would expect it would have a support section attached, too.

This wargaming site confirms my suspicions. A peloton consists of 3 x Groupes de combat + a section of rifle grenadiers.

http://www.io.com/~beckerdo/games/FlamesOfWar/FrenchInf/index.html

This should prove very helpful, being groggy in the extreme.

http://enpointe.chez-alice.fr/di.html

Regards,

John Kettler

John Kettler,

I meant "squad" but wrongly wrote "platoon", but I think it was obvious...