c3k Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Gents, Forgive me for resurrecting this issue, however, it seems so much gets lost in the flood. Right now there is some inconsistency in the effects and orders for various units. The best example is the Bradley, although other units are also affected. Given two Bradleys, one with TOW missiles, one without. Both Bradleys can be ordered to "Target" (red) the enemy. They will both show RED target lines. However, the TOW capable Bradley will fire its TOW missiles while the other uses its 25mm cannon. Same order, same units, different results. Or, to prevent the firing of the TOW missiles, the player has to order "Target Light" (yellow) for that Bradley while the other Bradley cannot Target Light but must Target. In that case you get the same exact weapon system from identical units but only through different interfaces. This is quite inconsistent. A solution would be to blank out the red Target button if that capability is no longer available. In the case of the Bradley, once both TOW missiles are fired it cannot Target, but can only Target Light. A better solution would be "Target Light" to include only machineguns/rifle ammo. "Target" would include explosives, such as grenades, M203's, M19's, autocannon, etc. Finally, limited salvo weapons such as TOW's and Javelins would require a specific "Fire Special Weapon" command, or somesuch. Regardless, right now there is an inconsistency in commands and user interface. It seems that fixing it before CMx2 goes much further would be in the best interest of the series. Finally, another inconistency: vehicle crewmembers in good health are blue. Wounded do not show as yellow - like the other wounded in the game show - but, rather, they show as RED. The KIA/Heavy Wounded (or otherwise unable to fulfill their duty) crewmembers do not show as RED - like all the other game units show - but, rather, they are shown as absent. The simple solution would be to change the crewmember status colors to be aligned with all those others in the game. Thanks, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combatintman Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Err - one with TOW one without - the one with TOW uses its TOW but the one without uses its 25mm cannon - surely that is an entirely predictable outcome? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Entirely consistent. Both vehicles have used their most powerful available armament. Bringing the crew issue into line with infantry casualties might be useful, but would this cause a problem if you recrew? Perhaps yellow for wounded would make more sense, while absent still indicates a loss and permits filling that slot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I have to agree, I think this is a non-issue. I don't have any problems getting vehicles to fire main armament or small arms using the existing commands. Whilst on the subject however, when are BFC going to fix the Bradley so it deploys its TOW launch assembly from its "stowed" position to its ready to fire position? I remember reading ages ago that the model is actually already designed to do this but the code isn't in place to make it work. Also, why can't a Bradley reload its empty TOW launch tubes? Is this by design (i.e. it would only be done after a battle) or is it just missing functionality? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Field Marshal Blücher Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I'm completely fine with the current system too. Any changes are IMO unnecessary and a waste of programming time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted July 25, 2008 Author Share Posted July 25, 2008 Interesting.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted July 25, 2008 Author Share Posted July 25, 2008 How do I get the Bradley to only fire its coax? Still interesting... Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 deleted per user request 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 How do I get the Bradley to only fire its coax? Still interesting... Ken Try target light. If that doesn't fire the coax alone, but saves the TOW, who cares? This reminds me of the movie "Untouchables" when Sean Connery says "Just like a Wop to bring a knife to a gunfight" (please forgive the racist slur, this is a direct quote from the film). In other words, I can understand not wanting to use the TOW but wanting to use just the coax when you've got a 25mm chain gun seems - odd? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted July 26, 2008 Author Share Posted July 26, 2008 Well, why would you only want to use the coax on an Abrams? Or T-72? Given a scenario victory condition which limits damage to a building, the coax is a much better tool. The 25mm will damage the building. As well, the friendly fire modelling would be affected. Currently small arms friendly fire is ignored. (I'm fine with this; it seems like the best/easiest way to model small unit fire coordination issues.) I can area fire a trench line while another unit assaults it. I need to use area fire because the contact will disappear immediately, causeing my support unit to cease fire. High explosives are not immune to the friendly fire coding. Explosives from my units will cause my other units to gain casualties. Okay, those are two examples. What if I want to spray down a suspected area but don't want to use up my 25mm ammo on unknown area firing? In short, in this game and this GAME ENGINE, why are there significant inconsistencies in unit control? Regards, Ken (An aside: reading one of the biographies on Creighton Abrams when one anecdote stood out. Remember, Abrams was one of Patton's battalion commanders and actually led the attack into Bastogne, among his many other battlefield accomplishments. Anyway, as Army Chief of Staff he was in Germany with one of the U.S. armored divisions. They took their best tank crew and gave him a ride through their qualification tactical course, knocking down tank targets, etc., and roaring through it. They had the best marksmenship and lowest time. Abrams was grossly disappointed. He told them to do it again, but this time to pretend a Soviet was behind every bush, every wall, every window, waiting to pop them with an RPG. They crept forward, hosing down every piece of cover with coax and TC machinegun fire. The book might've been "Thunderbolt".) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Steiner Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 c3k, I get where you are coming from but what we have now is entirely consistent with the previous CM series of games. In CM:BO, CM:BB and CM:AK, when you picked a target for an AFV, it prompted "Use main gun?". If you answered "No", it used MGs only. The only thing that's changed is that the Bradley has three weapons (TOW, main gun, MGs) instead of just two (main gun, MGs) like in the original CM series. I suppose what you are asking for is "Use main gun?" followed by "Which one?" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted July 26, 2008 Author Share Posted July 26, 2008 You're on the right track. I want machinegun only, main gun, special weapon. Each step includes the previous step. In CMBO et al., there were no such thing as ATGM's. Hence, CMx2 opens up a new venue. In CMx2 WWII what will I do with my M3's? I've got MG's, a 37 and a 75. (Hey, I'm all for a TacAI which will let 'er rip when my survival is threatened!) Right now, I just forgot that I saddled an HQ unit with a Javelin. I wasn't happy when they area fired it into my objective building. Target vice Target Light. By the way, what the heck does Target Light do that Target does not (or vice versa) when using a line squad? Why have the two commands? Yes, I'd love to see a "Fire Special" command. Think of flame tanks armed with main guns, mg's AND flamethrowers. That command would be usefuel. (Pun intended.) Seriously, why can I not use only MG's? Why do missiles HAVE to be launched? Regards, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 deleted per user request 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted July 26, 2008 Author Share Posted July 26, 2008 Hmm, I'll test the friendly fire issue with Bradleys. I thought all explosives potentially caused casualties. But the overarching issue remains: why is the coax prohibited from firing by itself? (For a squad with no anti-tank weaponry, what is the difference between "Target" and "Target Light"?) Regards, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 Hmm, I'll test the friendly fire issue with Bradleys. I thought all explosives potentially caused casualties. But the overarching issue remains: why is the coax prohibited from firing by itself? (For a squad with no anti-tank weaponry, what is the difference between "Target" and "Target Light"?) Regards, Ken Rate of fire: single - aimed - shots vs. bursts, length of bursts, frequency of shots etc. At shorter distances, use of hand grenades etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted July 26, 2008 Author Share Posted July 26, 2008 Moon, Thanks. I just tested and there is another difference: the "Target" unit will use grenade launchers at range, the "Target Light" will not. (At least, not in my test.) The rate of fire was approximately 1/2 with "Target Light". I can confirm the Bradley 25mm explosions do NOT cause friendly casualties. I can also confirm that the Bradley will NOT FIRE ITS COAX if it can fire its 25mm cannon. So, any chance of ever gaining control of that coax? Or, is all that 7.62mm ammo meant for ballast? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, it'll use the coax after it runs out of 25mm ammo. Is that what BF.C wants? Regards, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 deleted per user request 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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