AAR - Minty Allies Vs Mark Y Axis

[Minty]

So the AARs seem to have vanished and I liek reading them, posting a short one myself , please post more

Mark Y's Axis stage an efficent but cautious take down of Poland, maximising target practice on the polish forces before taking down Warsaw. Meanwhile Denamrk is attacked from Kiel and airsupport.

Allies were halfway through loading up to preemptively liberate Norway when copenhagen fell. a change of plan and Bomber commands uncontested dominance over Northern germany leads to XXX corp landing at Kiel with a view to capturing it. It's occupied by subs but Hamburg is empty and is soon in British hands just as winter sets in.

More British aggresion in the Med and French forces departing for the homeland cause early Italian entry. after a few turns of naval battle the Italian navy is reduced to the sub force but Malta corp was destroyed trying to amphib over to Libya. Gibraltor corps ,very badly damaged by Italain subs, just mange to get to Malta and turn back a counter amphib force.

Spring 1940, XXX corps winter in Hamburg was a quiet one with STDs from the red light district more of a danger than the wehrmacht who seemed to mass around the city. As soon as the thaw came so did the panzers but brave XXX corps held on for a couple of turns and disrupted Axis plans in the west by at least 2 turns.

Belgium is conquered with ease and the Germans sweep into France with Italains moving up from the south. confident of making up for the late start Panxers approach Paris only to be surprised by not one but two French tank armies crossing the seine. Colonel De Gaulle destroys one panzer division and the second retreats. But German forces quickly reorganize, the luftwaffe and infantry make short work of the unsupported French tanks and lay siege to Paris which falls in August but Brest appears occupied by british forces.

Summer goes by and Brest is not attacked. Have allied forces been over stretched in the Med, Brest and Hamburg? Mark Y clearly thinks so and Sealion is launched in late summer. It's a disaster. The RAF spots thems and the first wave of Royal Navy ships sinks thousands of Germans. The navy is in turn sunk by subs and german planes. The second wave of RN ships attacks ports in Caen and Holland destroying troops as they load. The kriegmarine surface fleet enters the battle and pushes the RN out of the channel to the Irish sea and north but losing all its crusiers in the process. The Germans land in SE england but can't capture a port, looping round Ireland glasgow is captured though but before they can send in more reinforcents a final wave of RN ships, sent hastily from the Med cuts off the German transports. The battle wages all winter, with German forces in Scotland trying to link with unsupplied units in the south but blocked by British tanks. With appalling weather and no airsupport the German attacks grind down until spring when another massive German and Italian wave of transports arrives. The Italians only get in the way and are removed by german HQ only to sunk by what remains of the RN (Five British BB lost but Kreigmarine down to Bismarck and one newly built sub)

Eventually in May 1940 London, then quickly Manchester fall but nt before 3 corps are evacuated. 8th army tanks hold Edinburgh for another month until blasted by Stukas. They destroy another panzer though bringing German losses to an (approx) staggering 2 panzers, 4 armies,1 para and 3 corps.Many lost at sea.

British forces in North afrika race west and with the Italians unsupported by Fritz and fighting in Scotland make rapid gains to provide plenty of space from their new capital, Alexandria.

the USSR has been mobilising since Sealion and when barborossa is launched the Germans make few gains. Riga and Minsk fall but the German airpower is blunted by thousands of advanced Red Army fighter planes. By 42 the gains have been lost, Germany has quickly taken vichy france, norway, yugo and Ireland to bolster production and morale but not even Goebbels could hide that the weakened Wehrmacht is being pushed out of Russia. By mid 42 the last German retreats from Riga and Warsaw is the battle line. The soviets rule the air but, short on supply and men, can't break German forces in Poland before winter. A diversion to the south, stuck in the mountain breaks into romania in early 43 and is coordinated with British forces coming through captured albania and Yugoslavai.

Italy loses ground in the desert throughout 42 and Sicily is easily captured, However German troops hold out against newly landed US forces in Rome for over a year.

Summer 43 and Germany is fighting a rearguard action against a now full strength Red army. Corps, Anti air and anti tank units create a deep line that is tough for the red army to concentrate fire upon. Soviet tactical bombers and heavy tanks can destory 2 or 3 german units every turn but wave after wave of cheap , well supplied , german replacements make the advance slow. German Anti tank weapons prove very cost effective, wearng down veteran Soviet tankers.

Deciding to bypass the UK and Italy, the allies decide to eliminate all fascist forces entirely and invade Spain. with the support of 2 full teched out aircraft carriers the US navy quickly secures the atlantic but unexpectedly the U boats come out of nowhere to destroy 2 transports before being finally eliminated. The bismarck is hiding in the baltic shelling Russians along the coast.

Spain is attacked from the Med, gibraltor and the atlantic. Francos forces hold out well in mountains and the U boats sinking buy thema him a turn or two of time but eventually they succumb leaving the way open for a rapid advance into France. Fast moving British corps have been roaming around the french countryside all summer, forraging in the fench countryside, avoiding the lightly garrisioned cities and cutting communications and supply.

In late 43 Berlin falls. Entrenched around Munich all winter the german forces await the final assault but are bypassed by the soviets to attack northern Italy. Finally in May44 both Rome, Berlin, London and Paris are all taken.

the Key turning point was clearly sealion. Mark showed that if you want to take the UK then nothing can stop you but with such huge losses he could not get them replaced in time for Barby. Allied strategy was very aggresive at first but not so much as to leave UK undefended. Extra tanks for Britain and France were expensive early investments but they each destroyed german panzers units that were not present at Barby.

In turn the Allies lost momentum in 43 after destring vast numbers of axis forces in 42. considering Iwas in Germany in late 42 and haled half of Italy I was foolish in allowing the Axis to reorganise defences. Although spain proved a useful way into France and landing point in Wst europe for US forces, Rome and Munich would have fallen faster if I had concentrated all allied forces in the Med and pushed north rather than worrying about liberating london and paris.

Axis subs remained a threat all game but never really achieved a signifcant presence after the kriegsmarine and Royal navy destroyed each other.

Now post your AARs!!!

[Colin I]

Nice AAR.

SeaLion is quite an issue. I've pulled it off a few times but most often opening with a massed paradrop (2 German, one Italian) following up a TAC air offensive then a fast transport in of an HQ and a few armies. You need to plan it, but its much less risky than this game.

I'm not sure the SC2 rewards success enough for taking out the vUK mainland - its a risky strategy for which you get some resources but get the Russians etc. earlier. Worse, UK is very hard to defend when US swings into the war - its easy to isolate before a counterinvasion unless German navy is very strong and really mandates a bomber or a group of subs to spot incoming forces in time. You deny the UK as an offshore aircraft carrier ans staging post and obviously reduce UK forces but I've seen them fight very well from North Africa. Loss of the UK should be devastating to the Allies.

Loss of UK, perhaps, should cripple Russian convoys and provide some plunder even if the Brits are still in the war and reduce UK diplomatic chits?

To jump to another thread you can take UK before France or Poland in the Patton Drives East variant Storm of Steel but it IS challenging (but fun).

[SeaMonkey]

I've noticed exactly the same thing, a successful Sealion really doesn't have the game impact you would expect historically.

Being highly risky as well as costly, not to mention the consequence of a declawed Barbarossa, Sealion reward seems to be insignificant as a game strategy, no matter which capital is chosen for the alternative Manchester loss.

Someone prove us wrong....please!

[arado234]

Imho taking Engalnd doesnt have near the effect it should.Ive listed in previous threads what I think should happen.

[Minty]

True Arado, taking England out does not have the effect it should but then taking England is an lot easier than it should have been. Amphibing (?) is just too easy in SC2 for all sides and it is laughable that HQs alone in foreign lands somehow magically can support half a million men wihout ports, roads, raillinks etc

Still it's works and makes for a nice game but in reality there was just no way that Germany could have taken the UK in 40/41 AND put on a Barborossa. so why should there be in the game?

So Seamonkey I think actually that a succeful sealion does have the historical impact that could be expected, principally a completed exhausted and over committed 1941 German war machine that could not possibly hope to send 2 million men over the russian border.

SC2 is great in that it gives you the option (dubious as to whether it is even possible) that Germany can somehow send hundreds of thousands of supplied soldiers across the channel in 1940 but it does have consequences.

[SeaMonkey]

No doubt a good point Minty. But if we're going to pursue the "what if" that Sealion presents then there should be the option of an additional delay for USSR entry.

In the world of conjecture, the "what if" environment of SC2 should allow the USSR an option of DoW ing the Axis after a certain date and not be compelled to enter due to a ramping up USSR readiness as an effect of Sealion.

In an historical context I believe the USSR wouldn't be alarmed to the degree SC models for entry, but actually may take some relief of the fact that they would be allowed to extend their neutral time period due to Sealion.

Now the dilemma that Germany faces is what strategies USSR may follow and would they exercise the option of DoW at a most inopportune moment for them in light of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

The only question in my mind is when the option for USSR to exercise its DoW feature should be available in game time, of course with the % variables plus or minus gameturns. Perhaps at some readiness level the option is enacted.

Now the USSR has some control over their entry and not subject to German actions exclusively.

[The K Man]

I would agree with Minty on this one (for exactly the reasons he lists.) After reading the AAR (which was great,) I felt that the consequences fit, if the Germans decide to do a Sealion. I always thought taking the island was too easy. And it should hurt you for the attack in Russia and does. I've seen in the original SC2, game once the island falls, the axis goes straight for Africa (rightfully so.) With UK out of the game, it doesn't matter how weak Barbarossa is. I know this would be tougher to do in WAW, but is still feasible. To me, that's a pretty big impact...for the allies...

[Minty]

Seamonkey,

A good idea, what would it have taken though for Stalin to have declared War on Germany? I don't think he'd have ever done it until , like Japan, they were already weakened by the Western allies.

But your argument that the USSR readiness goes is interesting. I can see that whilst teh USSR might be initially relived that Germans are drowning in English beaches IF Sealion were succesfull and it knocks the UK out the Uncle Joe would get very nervous. Ok Germnay could not have done much in early 41 perhaps but it wouldn't take too long to turn all attention east. I think the game models this well and that

[SeaMonkey]

Maybe I better define my "camp". I like long competitive games for PBEM and shorter operational variants tourneys and AI versions.

For this discussion I'm on board with WaW Fall Weiss with UK capital fallback to Canada, in other words they never surrender. This is the majority of my human opponent games.

Here's my historical orientation, Stalin being a communist dictator was very distrustful of everyone, especially capitalistic and fascist regimes, read UK,USA, and Germany. Any situation that causes one or more's demise is favorable from his point of view, IMO.

Germany's original intent with the non-aggression treaty was to secure its eastern interests so that it may pursue conflict with the west, obviously Hitler lost sight of that on the way, but since we're role playing we don't have to make that bad decision.

In my mind, dictated by my game experience, with the above options, Sealion is only viable if the UK embarks upon aggressive acts abroad. There is no chance, I repeat, no chance of a successful Sealion if UK stays at home and does not over commit to other theaters. That is for the Axis player to decipher and the Allied player to obscure.

So all I'm saying, with the above conditions met, is that depending on the losses sustained in Sealion the USSR should have an option of DoWing the Axis as was their plan eventually and Germany should also have a like option available as historical.

This would culminate in an H-hour countdown to war with the uncertainity of who would blink first, knowing that later the Western Allies would again enter the fray in the eastern hemisphere.

[arado234]

Minty while I do agree its fairly easy to invade England remember the British and French are also allowed to invade when neither had any capability to pull anytype of amphib attack that early(especially the French).I realise that in this game it would be very tough for the French to attempt any type of amphib attack.

As far as this game goes you could have it in such a way that your amphib.capability(available trans.)is realted to amphib invasion tech upgrade:

1 tech means 2 trans

2 tech means three,etc.

This way if Germany really wants to invade England its going to cost,same when the Allies invade.The problem with this is it will greatly restrict amphib invasions overall(most likley better for Germany)and make it dependent more on luck(tech.hits).

There is noway to find a proper answer to this because of what these troop icons represnt(between 40 and 60 thousand men)When the Allies came ashore in 1944 they only landed with 7 divisions.That equals about 1 army in this game.Hardly enough to pull off a major invasion.

The only other way I can see there being some balance is if Germany takes out Engalnd then the American and Russian ind.and prod.tech start to climb rapidly to actual historical levels.This way it gives the Allies a good chance to get back into the game.If this is ever done then Germany is also going to have to get some benefits from taking England.

Overall the loss of England in reality would have been a MAJOR disaster for the Allies.

It should be represented better in this game.

As far as the Germans being able to take England in reality imho if they didnt let the Allies escpae from Dunkirk(which would have been quite easy) and as soon as they saw the trap start to close, immediately plan for and execute a para. drop onto Brit. airfields and start to bring in troops.It would have been quite unsupported but since the Allies had nothing to shoot back with and with the collapse of France and the B.E.F.gone it might verywell have been the end of British morale and willingness to fight.Remember the Germans pulled this very move off when they took Crete and the British had time to prepare because they knew of the attack from Ultra.In the summer of 1940 this info wouldnot have been available to the British.

Minty as far as H.Q.s supplying troops in a foreign land without ports,remember the Allies had the Mulberry harbours in Normandy for this very reason.You are right though that this idea wasnt available in 1940.

[SeaMonkey]

Excellent perspective A234!

[Blashy]

Doing a sealion is simply not possible if UK is properly prepared and in SC2 this is easily done.

The current setup is fine, how the players play UK early is what can cost them.

[SeaMonkey]

So I'm assuming your OK with the risk vs reward WaW presents for Sealion prosecution?

[arado234]

Blashy,what about some plunder mpps for Germany if the Axis takeout England and Africa and the Brit.Capital moves to Canada?