Black Hawk Down experiment - how did they survive!

[Cpl Steiner]

I made a simple little scenario the other day entitled "The Lost Convoy", in which 4 humvees try to transport a platoon HQ and 1 MOUT squad split into three teams across a city map surrounded by Uncons. This was supposed to represent one of the humvee convoys in the Battle of Mogadishu, otherwise known as "Black Hawk Down".

Well, to cut a long story short, the humvees don't stand a chance. They are cut to pieces by RPGs within the first couple of minutes of the scenario starting. This happens even when I set the Red force to be conscript quality with -2 leadership and poor equipment.

So what gives? Does CM:SF make conscript-level Uncons with poor equipment too deadly or is my perception of the battle flawed?

[ August 15, 2007, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Cpl Steiner ]

[PrezCartman]

Steiner,

Keep in mind most of those firing RPGs in the Mog weren't even conscripts, they were just random civs with their own weapons. I have a feeling the Syrians are portrayed as a little more effective then the Somalis were. Also, keep in mind the US forces had A LOT of outbound firepower not to mention some air cover. I don't think you can really simulate a BHD type situation in CMSF. For one thing Somalis were largely individual fighters staging attacks with little overall coordination so forget organized squad firepower. Not to say that years of fighting hasn't given the Somalis plenty of practice but still not the level of organization and unity that even a conscript Syrian squad possesses.

[Roter Stern]

Very good points, if anything the Somali force should be made exclusively of Small Combatant HQ teams - which are just 2 guys with a pair of AK's – and possibly an occasional 1-man sniper team or an RPG team.

[thewood]

Also keep in mind most of the AK's were locally made and would pretty poor out of the box quality compared to what Syria could bring to bear.

[jomni]

Plus the Somalians are hungry due to famine so their physical fitness may not be that high. Maybe you can lower the physical fitness level of OPFOR next time.

[SgtMuhammed]

They survived because basically 99 percent of the Somalis were using area fire. The Rangers and D-boys reported that the vast majority would just stick their weapon in the general direction of the target and pull the trigger. Fortunately for the convoys, they did basically the same thing with their RPGs. Had even half the firers had the luck or nerve that the guys who brought down the three Blackhawks had then it would have been a slaugher.

The Somalis had lots of experience shooting at each other but agains real troops they died in droves. Their main assets were their numbers and the fact that the were at least willing to show up and fire a few rounds. Many so called "trained soldiers" refuse to do even that.

In CMSF every shot is more or less aimed unless you target an area with no one in it.

[jomni]

Correct in the movie black hawk down, the Somalis do not use crosshairs but shoot from the hips. They do not go prone and just stand and run.

I played a SPMBT game of Ethiopia vs. Somalia. And my Ethiopian regular troops massacred the poor Somali militia. 14 casualties vs 1,000

[ August 15, 2007, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: jomni ]

[ChrisND]

Jomni, no offense, and I enjoyed the movie, but movies are not a source of information.

[jomni]

I expected that reply.

Cheers!

[Cpl Steiner]

I thought Uncon Combatants in the game were supposed to be untrained civilians with a weapon just like the Somalis?

[jomni]

Nope. Uncon Combatants are deadly killers and trained Al Qaeda-style. They're morale fanatical than the Syrian Army.

[KNac]

Originally posted by Normal Dude:

Jomni, no offense, and I enjoyed the movie, but movies are not a source of information.

Haha, true, but I think this case may be oen exception. Anyway if you read combat reports from the battle or other wars in the area you may extract same conclussion.

Fighters = Hezbollah

Combatants = Al Qaeda insurgency in Iraq

I think these are fair examples. I don't think there is way to suimulate the scenario with current forces, somalis were just to crappy (come on 1000:19 ratio in MOUT, that should say it all, even if the US had much more firepower).

[Sergei]

Fighters consist of terrorists, foreign trained fighters, and local fanatics with some semblance of military organization, including a distinguishable “uniform”. They fight in small, unevenly distributed forces using all means of warfare at their disposal such as IEDs, technicals (armed civilian vehicles), and the latest in anti-tank weaponry. What they lack in skill they attempt to make up for in determination.

Combatants are little more than armed civilians with some sort of motivation to fight. Unlike Fighters, these units are ad-hoc in nature. Therefore, they lack the proper uniform, command structure, and organization of even Fighters, not to mention a unit in the Armed Forces. They rely on hit and run tactics using light weapons, IEDs, technicals, and simple AT weapons.

As to the original question, it's probably impossible to model the straight forward way. You'd have to take into consideration things like tactical readiness and awareness - units on the battlefield in CM are there to 'play the game', while it is likely that many of the Mogadishu gunmen were not.

[ August 16, 2007, 03:07 AM: Message edited by: Sergei ]

[Cpl Steiner]

I still contend that it should be possible to simulate the Black Hawk Down battle using Uncon Combatants on the lowest experience, motivation and equipment settings. The fact that we can't indicates some possible problems with CMx2.

1. Defensive Fire - the humvee's in my experiment all had crewed M2 machine guns. These should have been opening up on any spotted enemy and suppressing them.

2. Spotting - Perhaps the MGs weren't firing because they were failing to spot the enemy on the roof-tops. Is spotting too difficult?

3. Accuracy - the Uncon Combatants seem too accurate. They should be missing most of the time from my reading of the Black Hawk Down battle and of some of the Iraqi insurgent battles. These guys don't seem to take aim at all, and yet in the game they kill M2 gunners in seconds and destroy vehicles with well-aimed RPGs in minutes.

By the way, the Blue force I used for the experiment is as follows:

1x Supply platoon (4 humvees, 1 HQ, 3 crews)

1x Mech Inf (MOUT) HQ

1x Mech Inf (MOUT) Squad split into teams of 3.

[SgtMuhammed]

Your third point is the important one. Almost all fire by the Somalis in that battle was of the spray and pray variety. You can't do that in the game.

[Guest]

Actually, the thing to remember is that there were small numbers of experienced and organized fighters in Mogadishu that day -- they knocked down the BlackHawks and generally did most of the damage. They knew what they were doing, and used cover and aimed fire to achieve their (generally small and localized) objectives.

If you just use a few relatively small groups of decent troops, fighting in small teams from key positions, and set the population density to the heaviest possible, you'll have a better simulation of the day. Not quite as fun as setting up 5000 untrained civilians, possibly, but much more realistic in terms of effects.

[jomni]

Oh yeah... someone commented on my comment that you can't take the movie seriously for good reason. Maybe you shouldn't take it seriously as well... Trying to make handful US troops take out 1000s of militia.

[Guest]

No, the movie probably shouldn't be taken seriously -- it's a dramatization that chops up the true story of the day pretty severely. Read the various accounts out there and that'll give you a better idea.

I'd assume, though, that most of the people on this forum have read Bowden's book, at least.

[MarceloFalcon]

I read Bowden's book, and even after that reading, I think the figure that the movie presents of 1,000 Somali casualties is a bit on the inflated side of the estimates.

And that's all I have to add to the discussion... I read the book over a year ago and don't feel too sure about adding anything else.

[jomni]

Yes, I believe things were exaggerated even in the official accounts.

[Pak40]

Also, don't forget that most of the Somalis were high on that weed that they chew, supposedly giving them a pretty good buzz and do crazy things that any normal man in combat would not do, i.e. walk out in the middle of the street while firing and thinking they are indestructible.

[Guest]

Daniel Bolger's "Death Ground" also has a decent account. After reading a few sources, it seems as though the 1,000 count may not be exaggerated.

Remember that, after night fell, the "armored" column coming to the rescue going through Mogadishu proceeded to destroy most of the area they moved through.

Add to this that the troops on the ground were forced to engage crowds -- with, for example, 5.56 rounds that by all accounts could easily penetrate multiple human bodies -- in an area where there was NO medical attention for most of the population, and I could definitely see the incidental casualty count being much higher than the deliberately-engaged count.

[86smopuim]

IIRC mini guns from the air wre used.

If so, 1000 is probably an underestimate.

[Guest]

Correct, and maybe so.