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Red-vs-Red Scenario - Chechen War – Black Bear Down


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I’m pleased to present to you the second installment of my Red vs Red scenarios based on the Chechen War.

Chechen War - Black Bear Down

The scenario takes place on the evening of 17 May 1995 after a Federal Mi-8 transport helicopter is shot down over a Guerrilla controlled mountain region in South Chechnya.

The Company sized engagement is between the Russian Federal forces attempting a rescue and Chechen Guerrilla forces advancing on the crash site to eliminate survivors and gather intelligence.

As with the previous scenario, this one was designed with Multiplayer in mind, however there are several Blue and Red AI plans. For single player I’d recommend playing Red first.

Study the map commander, you’re moving out!

chechenwar2jv4.jpg

Download from: My CMSF Scenarios Shared Folder

In case anyone missed it, here’s a shameless plug for my first RvR Chechen War scenario “Polyanskoe”… http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=52;t=002395

Also a designers note – ideally I would’ve liked to make most hills and steep slopes inaccessible to vehicles, but unfortunately that is currently impossible without also denying infantry access. So if you’d like a personal challenge and play the scenario the way it “should have been” played, keep your vehicles off all major slopes. The only two hills that have shallow enough slopes to allow for limited vehicle access are Heights-2142 and -2145West.

While I enjoy the praise, I also encourage constructive criticism, so please don’t be shy :D

Enjoy!

[ August 21, 2007, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: The Louch ]

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I played it against AI, followed your advice and played it as Red.

The Mi-8 guys managed to stop a couple of platoons non-stop, I suppose in a big part was due to the enemy performing the infame "crawl of death" while attacking me. Lost a couple of ICV though and some guys while dismounting (bad-ass techncials haha).

Interesting scenario, first, I ejoyed to see a more greenish map, was tired of so much desert damn it. Just if we had a snow mod though hehe.

You tried to simulate a forest enviorenment very well, unfortunatly the engine in its current state does not care much about trees, bushes and that kind of stuff... too bad, I hope at some point this will be fixed/included. This resulted in having a good LOS early in the game and during it, and as result a good situational awareness (not much surprises).

But this is none of your fault, just engine limits your map highlighted. Enjoyed it anyway. Nice job!

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Originally posted by KNac:

You tried to simulate a forest enviorenment very well, unfortunatly the engine in its current state does not care much about trees, bushes and that kind of stuff... too bad, I hope at some point this will be fixed/included. This resulted in having a good LOS early in the game and during it, and as result a good situational awareness (not much surprises).

While I thank you for the comments on the scenario, I simply could not let this rather ignorant and uneducated statement pass by. Hence I bring you the LOS and Foliage – a topic important enough to have it’s own thread.
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i "cease fired" 20 minutes befor end. 500 to 0 points for me :D

4 KIA 14 WIA

had a bad time with vehicles throught the devils thingy, also auto rotating vehicles gave me creeps as you can read somewhere else :D

other than that it was verry nice!

only strange thing, i had "INSANE" amounts of friendly fire going on. at some points i thought one of my squads do fight the other. they shot RPG´s on the other squads BTR once. i had more problems with FF than with the enemy thats why i cease fired so they dont hurt themselfs any longer.

i wonder if thats becouse there is no company HQ or my "game" crunched some extremely strange nubmbers somehow...but i never saw FF befor in the game, and here they nearly fought each other... :confused:

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Ok, I answered your other thread. But, on topic...

Settings: dusk

Forces: Syrian army (RG or regulars) as Russians // Uncons as Chechen Guerrilla

None of them have superior optics and night equipment I think (I may be doing again an uneducated statement, if so, sorry, but this is not documented in the manual, as well as the terrain C&C isue but...), and they are in dusk. Now, if it seems reasonable that assuming these two premises a squad could spot enemies in dense forest up to 200m or more to the point of aiming and shooting, well then I've a flawed view of reality.

If you similar behaviour in other scenarios, you draw conclussions. Is none of my job to perform tests to validate or not these points, I just use my perception, but as I told in the other thread, if someone comes and points I'm wrong, fine.

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Originally posted by Pandur:

i "cease fired" 20 minutes befor end. 500 to 0 points for me :D

4 KIA 14 WIA

Are you saying you suffered a total loss of 500-to-0? With only 18 casualties? Geez, talk about giving up too quick tongue.gif

Don’t forget that the Federal forces are hardly penalized for suffering heavy casualties, so unless all of your BTR’s are on fire and troops are broken and running away, there is no reason to not push forward :D

As for the friendly fire issues, I honestly have never seen something like that in this or any other scenario. My only guess is that the RPG’s were aiming at an enemy directly in front of another friendly unit, and due to lack of experience or otherwise were missing and either hitting the ground or the foliage (here’s that word again :D ) resulting in friendly casualties.

Originally posted by KNac:

None of them have superior optics and night equipment I think and they are in dusk. Now, if it seems reasonable that assuming these two premises a squad could spot enemies in dense forest up to 200m or more to the point of aiming and shooting, well then I've a flawed view of reality.

I’m sorry if it seems like I’m making it my personal mission to contradict everything you’re saying – I’m honestly not! :D

I find it really funny that you think that units spot each other too easily in this scenario. I was an inch away from completely giving up and scrapping the scenario half-way though when I realized that none of the Red units are able to spot anything short of an entire platoon charging straight at them. I had two units positioned on Hills 2158 and 2155 (a distance of about 150~200m) facing each other unhidden for a solid half hour without either one spotting the other.

What made a tremendous difference in the end is units moving around – a unit running is spotted almost instantly even at longer ranges. And that makes perfect sense to me, since movement produces the biggest visual signature of all other factors, even more so than gunfire.

So it seems that cover and concealment actually have more to do with small unit tactics than anything else - something that will really come into play in multiplayer, or perhaps with a more sophisticated AI planning.

Also if you’re really interested in realistic spotting, making sure you’re not playing on “Basic”, although even “Veteran” is a little too quick to spot units for my linking.

[ August 15, 2007, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: The Louch ]

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I was playing it on Elite, and you are right that most of the spotting happened while enemy units moved. Yes it makes sense, but I repeat that under these premises (dusk and forest -3 tree tile-, yes as you said in the other thread to which extend this represents forest or not is soemthing the developers would have to say) I don't think it would be that easy to detect movement. Also a lot of times enemy moved "slow" (crawl of death) so it would be even difficult to spot. Well, in any case I think all that discussion pertains more to game mechanics than to your own scenario.

Enjoyed it nevertheless so keep em coming smile.gif

Well, anyway these are game

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Are you saying you suffered a total loss of 500-to-0?
hehe no, when you say this in german, the "for me" would indicate that you had the points and not the enemy. no matter if its says 0 to 500 or 500 to 0 ;)

i guess it doesnt work like that in english :D

so in fact that means the opposite, i had 500 enemy had 0.

and about FF;

i overclock my Pc sometimes temporarily, i really thought that could have been becouse of that, crunching verry "strange/wrong" nubers but i dont thing that this was the case yesterday.

it was INSANE as i wrote, there where real little battles between my units. if that wouldnt have been the case i wouldnt have cease fired at all that early.

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This one's tough (Black Bear Down). Just got a pasting. Love it. Thanks Louch. This is a great example of a designer experimenting to see how much the game can encompass, and coming up with something really tense, atmospheric and challenging that's also significantly different from most of the other (also often excellent) battles I've played so far. It makes the future possibilites for CMSF look really exciting.

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Originally posted by Swift:

-- Slight spoilers --

Great scenario! Unfortunately for me the majority of Russian units where stuck at their deployment area but it still made for a great time.

Could you pleas elaborate on why or how the units were stuck? I’m presuming you’re referring to the reinforcements and not the units starting out at the crash site?

Were you playing as Blue or Red? Was it vs the AI?

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  • 10 years later...
  • 3 years later...
On 6/10/2021 at 3:02 AM, Roter Stern said:

Any luck tracking this one down?

I thought someone was looking through an old Hard drive for it (you actually)... other than that I only have half a lead from a Spanish website which I've begun chasing up.

Perhaps it's part of @Erwin's uber collection?

In which case @Bootie should have it?

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I looked and couldn't find "Black Bear Down".  Possibly it was never completed and I didn't see the point of collecting unfinished scenarios.

The other possibility is that it has a slightly different name and as my CMSF1 folder has over 1000 scenarios it's hard to locate.

Edited by Erwin
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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, 37mm said:

looking through an old Hard drive for it (you actually)

Yeah that was a bust - no trace of anything CMSF related.

Spanish website lead sounds intriguing - sounds like a present-day version of "i got a new BBS phone number from a friend-of-a-friend"

Edited by Roter Stern
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20 hours ago, 37mm said:

looking through an old Hard drive for it (you actually)

Yeah that was a bust - no trace of anything CMSF related.

Spanish website lead sounds intriguing - sounds like a present-day version of "i got a new BBS phone number from a friend-of-a-friend"

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18 hours ago, Erwin said:

The other possibility is that it has a slightly different name and as my CMSF1 folder has over 1000 scenarios it's hard to locate.

It was definately completed & was being swapped around (including on a Spanish CM forum).

 

However, thinking about it, I'd imagine it was actually titled...

"Chechen War - Black Bear Down"

 

I think there should be another one too, presumably titled...

"Chechen War - Komsomolskoye"

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