Assulting concealed enemy positions

[OG_Gleep]

Didn't want to Hijak the other thread, so I'll post here.

I am having a bit of a problem getting how to handle this. I am playing Realtime, and am on the 2nd misson, the Airfield.

As suggested, I'll saturate an suspected enemy position with fire from Strykers, and move overwatch squads into position. I'll have 1-2 Squads with cover arcs to the position I'll be assulting, and 1 or more MG elements on overwatch as well. If they were already in position, I'll use them as well to pump rounds in to get it read for assult.

I have a couple problems at this stage:

1) The targeting for area fire is really hard. I tried to knock the outer wall down for instance, and I couldn't target it. It would spring to the ground every time I tried. Trying to target a specific point in a building is very aggrivating. Is there any way to target better?

2) How close does the actual target indicator need to be to the actual enemy to be effective? Mostly reffering to rifle/mg fire from infantry and strykers.

So once overwatch is set and I have saturated the area with fire, I'll move a squad in the take the position (normally a building).

I normally give Fast/Quick order to the door, and hunt order to move inside the building. If the surrounding area isn't clear I'll pop smoke. If it is however, I don't because I don't want to obscure the men I have on overwatch.

This is where I have a problem and take casualties.

Normally anywhere from 1-4 guys are left, they are pinned, but still capable of firing. The squad normally doesn't see them until they fire and then after a casualty. At this point only the squad under fire can see them.

I don't know how to keep that squad from taking casualties. I've had enemies that have stayed hidden, even when leaving a sizable force right outside their position for extended periods of time while I delt with threats elsewhere. I had 2 strykers expend 600 rounds each of ammunition on the same floor/section of the building the enemy was in, and they still killed one of my men outside when I went in.

Overwatch won't spot them before they fire, and even the guys taking fire don't see them before they get a round off.

Unless you know exactly where the enemy is, you don't have enough ammo on your big guns to fire at every position (I expended 4 HE rounds on the building prior to this particular assult).

The only time I have managed to avoid taking casualties is when I have managed to eliminate the entire squad before going in, or by entering another part of the building first and then engaging the enemy. But that is just dumb luck.

Anyhow, any advice would be appriciated. I hate taking casualties, but they can't be avoided. I'm just trying to do everything in my power to avoid them.

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[Pandur]

I don't know how to keep that squad from taking casualties.

after i read your post i have to tell you there isnt anymore you can do(other than using heavy indirect fire).

you overwatch is further away than the assaulting squad, so they nearly allways see the enemy later than the assaulting one.

and exactly at that point, where your assaulting team is on the move and your overwatch reacts just some moments later, is where you normaly take casualties. thats ok, it works like that.

if you want to take that ground with enemys still in there, you have to move if nothing shows up to shoot, then they will shoot at you. you see em and kille em with super precision after taking a few casualties or not, often its luck at that point. ...done.

and i know the "area fire" thingy is suggesed at many places but i wouldnt overdo it! if you area fire a house and a enemy pops up right next to it you will still fire on the wrong house instead of haveing reactive overwatch wich supresses what pops up.

i see you play realtime, than thats not too bad, you can change that on the fly but i would suggest to you that you dont use areafire until you "need" it, not just becouse there could be some guys.

use area fire to supress knowen enemy position, otherwhise its mostly sensless. also dont use the lousy .50 strykers, keep them reactive. 40mm HE upwards starts the good stuff for areafire.

hope that helps.

EDIT:

now i see this;

I hate taking casualties, but they can't be avoided. I'm just trying to do everything in my power to avoid them.

well said, and you are doing mostly all you can do already

[ March 19, 2008, 12:53 PM: Message edited by: Pandur ]

[Zwollo2003]

Originally posted by Pandur:

and i know the "area fire" thingy is suggesed at many places but i wouldnt overdo it! if you area fire a house and a enemy pops up right next to it you will still fire on the wrong house instead of haveing reactive overwatch wich supresses what pops up.

[/QB]

I think this is actually a separate problem. The troops stick too much to area fire orders- they continue to area fire even if they spot the enemy up close who then proceeds to shoot them to pieces with impunity. In CM1 the balance between sticking to area fire and switching over to identified targets was much better. In CMSF it should be tweaked towards the area fire being less "sticky".

Zwolo

[OG_Gleep]

and i know the "area fire" thingy is suggesed at many places but i wouldnt overdo it! if you area fire a house and a enemy pops up right next to it you will still fire on the wrong house instead of haveing reactive overwatch wich supresses what pops up.

use area fire to supress knowen enemy position, otherwhise its mostly sensless. also dont use the lousy .50 strykers, keep them reactive. 40mm HE upwards starts the good stuff for areafire.

I don't know. The Stykers have a ton of ammo. That is a lot of fire you have available. I agree that they should be on overwatch, but when you have that much ammo, you can afford to spray a position for while before switching to overwatch.

At the end of the 2nd mission, most of my Strykers were down to under 100 rounds. A couple were out.

I am a little confused about the HE strykers. I had thought they were one of my best assets, but truth be told, I never actually saw them kill anyone.

I had one of them pull around the far right flank to attack the jeeps behind the special forces HQ. I also had a Inf carrier attack. 2 of 3 men in the Jeep were killed. The last one tho, I wanted to kill with the HE. Unfortunatley it wasn't his time to go. I expended over 40 rounds while he crawled from the jeep to the HQ, and the lucky bastard made it! If they can't kill an enemy out in the open, how does it really fare against fortified positions?

*Edit*

I guess the real problem is not spotting the enemy until he pops up and decides to kill one of my guys. Is there any way to spot an enemy hiding in a building besides giving them a squad to shoot at?

[slug88]

Originally posted by OG_Gleep:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

and i know the "area fire" thingy is suggesed at many places but i wouldnt overdo it! if you area fire a house and a enemy pops up right next to it you will still fire on the wrong house instead of haveing reactive overwatch wich supresses what pops up.

use area fire to supress knowen enemy position, otherwhise its mostly sensless. also dont use the lousy .50 strykers, keep them reactive. 40mm HE upwards starts the good stuff for areafire.

I don't know. The Stykers have a ton of ammo. That is a lot of fire you have available. I agree that they should be on overwatch, but when you have that much ammo, you can afford to spray a position for while before switching to overwatch.

At the end of the 2nd mission, most of my Strykers were down to under 100 rounds. A couple were out.

I am a little confused about the HE strykers. I had thought they were one of my best assets, but truth be told, I never actually saw them kill anyone.

I had one of them pull around the far right flank to attack the jeeps behind the special forces HQ. I also had a Inf carrier attack. 2 of 3 men in the Jeep were killed. The last one tho, I wanted to kill with the HE. Unfortunatley it wasn't his time to go. I expended over 40 rounds while he crawled from the jeep to the HQ, and the lucky bastard made it! If they can't kill an enemy out in the open, how does it really fare against fortified positions?

*Edit*

I guess the real problem is not spotting the enemy until he pops up and decides to kill one of my guys. Is there any way to spot an enemy hiding in a building besides giving them a squad to shoot at? </font>

[YankeeDog]

I think you need to be realistic about what you should and shouldn't be able to accomplish in MOUT.

From what I've read in RL accounts of MOUT house-clearing actions (Fallujah etc.), some casualties are pretty much unavoidable. This is even true for a force with dramatically superior equipment and training, such as US infantry vs. the typical Iraqi insurgents.

Pretty much, if you can't, or aren't willing to just blow up the entire building with big HE, sending infantry in to root out any enemy hiding deep within a building brings with it a high risk of casualties no matter what toys you bring to the party.

One trick for overwatch/supressive fire: Whenever possible, try to have one unit or group area fire on the building while another just stands by and watches, ready to fire if any enemy actually pop up and are spotted.

Personally, playing on Elite, I find the ideal setup is to have a more distant AFV area fire on the building (reduces risk from RPG fire), and position at least one infantry team closer to the objective building to watch for any enemy infantry "flushed out" by the AFV area fire. Infantry teams seem to spot enemy infantry in heavy cover much more more quickly than AFVs do, at least at close range.

Also, I try to get fire/overwatch on the building from at least two angles. Ideal case is two fire groups, engaging from 90 degrees seperation. Obviously this is not always possible.

I don't know for sure if the engine models the increase in effective firepower from having multiple fire vectors, but it certainly seems to in my experience.

Final thought in re Stryker 105mm HE vs. infantry in the open: High velocity (= flat trajectory), impact-fused HE is not very effective against prone infantry in the open; most of the shrapnel goes up in the air or straight into the ground where it does no good. It's a different story if you can get an airburst somehow, either by VT fuse, or by hitting something like a wall or a tree above the infantry.

Structures are another matter. The HE shell can be set with a timed fuse to detonate just after it penetrates the exterior wall. Very nasty to anyone inside.

So it's not surprising to me that MGS 105mm HE fire would be proportionally more effective against infantry in buildings than against infantry in the open. Use the Coax MG (Target Light command) for infantry in the open. Saves valuable HE ammo, and probably not much less effective.

Cheers,

YD