ATGM Ambush - Anyone completed this?

[Lightning War]

If anyone has successfully completed this mission I'd love to hear your advice. It's apparently a real tough-nut to crack.

I had the three Bradleys spaced far apart, with the middle one on the road. Infantry units were placed near to the edge of the map, ready to dash into the trees on either side.

Within seconds of starting the mission, the Bradleys made contact and came under attack from AT weapons. I instantly popped smoke and sent the Bradleys racing to the trees on either side for cover. Two Bradleys got destroyed very quickly; the third I managed to cover behind the hill on the left. I moved the infantry through the woods on either side of the map, towards the enemy positions, with the intention of taking-out the opposition so the remaining Bradley could move up the road.

Well, my infantry got hammered pretty quickly by a machine gun emplacement and (what I assume was) AT fire. I brought the Bradley out from hiding behind the hill and it soon got minced by AT fire. I quit!

How the heck do you complete this mission? What did I do wrong?

[Hawkmek]

My guys met the same demise.

I remedied the situation by playing as Red.

I was wanting to try it again and keep the Brads moving back and forth perpendicular to the enemy.

Like those ducks at the carnival. Brads can fire on the move, right?

[Lightning War]

I think Bradleys can shoot whilst they're moving but they can easily get taken-out by AT missiles even if they're on the move.

So...

[JonS]

This is much, MUCH, harder in v1.03 compared to previous versions.

After multiple play throughs I'm starting to get there, but only by shamelessly exploiting prior knowledge about the enemies position, and by using javelins to take out enemy units without exposing the Bradleys.

At set up, I acquire all available javs but leave the squads dismounted, put the HQ into one of the tracks, and have everything positioned on the right edge of the setup area. All have move orders to get under the lee of the first hill on the right quickly, while the Brads all area fire into the location of the ATGM team to the left of the cutting (I told you: shameless).

I've yet to _win_, but I think in another play or two I should be able to do so. I've got my manpower cas down to about 3 pers, but keep losing two of the Brads, which borks the score.

[Truppenfuhrung]

You have to acquire the javelin during the setup phase.

When you spot the ATGM, your Bradleys should take evasive actions: smoke + move fast behind the hill.

Meanwhile, you pray and hope that your infantries spot and kill the ATGM with the javelins.

I was able to finish with 2 Bradleys intact.

During the last Lebanon war, the hezbollah's ATGM were very effective against Tsahal's armors.

[Hawkmek]

Okay, just replayed it.

I put all the troops in and moved all Brads to the far right. First move order was FAST to the trees and hills on the right.

Everyone made it thru minute one. I acquired Javs for everyone and dismounted. Minute 2 I lost one Brad. After that I was patient and used my infantry only. Kept my remaining two IFVs safe til the endgame.

I had a Major victory, but the points were 485 to 250 Syrian. I guess I lost too many personnel.

He had one left alive.

I noticed an orange exclamation point on a Syrian soldier under fire then he disappeared. Is that a rout? I guess he shows up as missing?

Played WEGO ELITE

[Lightning War]

Okay I just completed this on real-time veteran.

I followed Hawkmek's advice and armed all squads with javelins and immediately rushed the Bradleys to the trees on the right, heading for cover behind the hills. I popped smoke a couple of times for good measure.

Despite this I lost two of the IFVs before they managed to make cover; one of them was destroyed before the unit dismounted. Luckily one guy escaped and he had two javelins, which soon came in useful.

After dismounting I moved my infantry through the woods using the hunt order. Unfortunately one unit got nuked by a missile before any enemy units were spotted; I put this down to bad luck. The missile came from the AT position on the left ridge. I moved another unit forward and they quickly dispatched the AT position.

It was about this time that my remaining IFV - which I thought was well hidden - came under fire from the AT position on the front-left. I couldn't immediately return fire because the IFV was just behind the lip of a small ridge. I quickly moved over the ridge and ordered area-fire on the AT position which made short-work of the enemy.

From then-on it was simply a matter of cautiously moving my infantry forward and eliminating AT and machine-gun positions using javelins. On one occasion a javelin missed its target. On another occasion a soldier (the rest of his unit was dead) refused to fire his javelin at an enemy AT position. I put this down to his lack of rank and leadership; private -2. However, I moved another squad forward and they scored a successful hit with the last javelin!

All that was left to do was bring out the remaining Bradley and mop-up enemy small-arms units.

Did it with 2 minutes to spare, having lost 2 IFVs, 10 men and 5 wounded. All the Syrians were killed. Perhaps not the most prodigious victory but satisfying nonetheless.

The main lesson I learnt, thanks to Hawkmek, is not to expose your units to the full scope of the enemy units. It's much better to keep your units on one side of the map rather than both sides. This ensures that your men are entirely shielded from most of the enemy positions. This allows you to creep-around your cover, eliminating one unit at a time.

Anyway, that was fun. Next!

[JasonC]

Lightening - yeah, that idea is call "differential LOS" and it is tactical bread and butter...

[snake_eye]

1st

Mount the teams in the track, then get the hell out of the place. Either on going far right or left till you are at the base of the slope.

The left side is the more exposed while getting to the base of the hill.

2nd

On the way, provide Javelins to the teams.

3rd

Dismount them and have them go to the top of the hill (left and right). Beware on the left you are going to get a splendid and efficient ponding on them. So go on the right first

3rd

Have the track on the right go slowly toward the top and have it set hull down. While going up, you put suppress fire on the left. have the squad doing so while going up with whatever they have (Javelin's best). At the top fire straight forward and use javelin (don't waste them while going up).

4th

The left side is, as I discovered it, the worst side to be on. Try to manoeuver and inche your way up,without getting to the top (being hiden by the hill), in such a way, that you can shoot at the ATGM on the right side, at the bottom of the far side of the hill on the right. When you have it down,fire (always on the right side) at the farthest top hill edge.

That, should do it. But be advice to stay at all time away of the road and don't try to go farther that the two hills. Instead go to the flank and to the top.

If you don't leave the road sufficiently fast at the beginning, you are going to lose one and maybe a second track faster that it takes to write it down.

[Lightning War]

Originally posted by JasonC:

Lightening - yeah, that idea is call "differential LOS" and it is tactical bread and butter...

You're referring to my earlier comment regarding sticking to one side of the map?

[Sitting Duck]

I loaded up the Bradley's and split forces with 1 going left and 2 going right rushing to the hills.

Lost one Bradley on the right flank - fortunately after everyone had exited.

[Hev]

Has anyone tried it from the other side?

Ive tried both loads of times and im starting to notice some behaviour that i would not expect from this type of game.

When playing from the Blue side, if i leave my bradleys exposed the Kornets engage and hit with no misses and kills first shot.

When playing from the Red side, i can have up to three misses and ive even had a bradley shrug off a hit!

To me it seems the game is giving the TacAI for the opp force a hit percentage boost/buff. This isnt what Combat Mission games have been about and im seriously hoping its a bug that gets squashed fast!

[Lightning War]

If the AI is getting a boost, perhaps it's necessary to compensate for the lack of a human opponent?

[metalbrew]

Are we solely talking about playing against the AI?

Against the AI it's best to put all 3 Bradleys into warp speed towards the left side of the map. There's a small shelf on that side with perfect cover. There is no place on the right hand side that cannot be fired upon by the left AT-4C.

During setup I grab the Javelins and disembark all troops. On the first turn I leave my infantry stationary. Whether you can race all 3 Bradleys to the left side quickly enough is a coin flip. Usually 1 Bradley will get hit and the infantry will suppress and kill the AT-4Cs. Then move all infantry to the left killing any enemy infantry as you go with Javelin strikes.

With infantry, work your way up the left hill while killing the 73mm on the right side as you go. Crest the hill and kill the left side 73mm.

Pull all infantry to safety and roll the Bradleys forward killing the remaining infantry and machine guns. I've finished the map against the AI with no casualties although I think the map is somewhat of a gimmick since regardless of skill you can't really guarantee all 3 Bradleys will survive. I guess that's red's saving grace really - it can usually count on 1 Bradley kill unless they have really bad luck.

If red can achieve 1 Bradley kill and cause 30% casualties then they can eek out a minor win/defeat. Blue has 23 men, red only has to kill 7 men to get 300 points. The Bradley kill is worth 300 as well. This is a scenario that would really shine if their were exit zones. Red should win if they kill 7 men and knock out a Bradley assuming they could exit. This is a letter perfect hit and run opportunity. As it stands, red must stand and fight and it's not a very tough scenario once you've played it a few times.

Against a human, the red force is better off putting all of their eggs into one basket on red's left side. Fight a reverse slope defense on the rocky area. There's a small divot on red's back right hand corner that you can hide an AT-4C team in. If you begin to get flanked by infantry, give a manual targeting order with the AT-4Cs and that will immolate the would be flankers. Good luck, I think red is destined to lose the fight against a human with a bit of knowledge of this map. Even a strong red defender really only has 1 place to fight an effective defense.

[stikkypixie]

Originally posted by Hev:

Has anyone tried it from the other side?

Ive tried both loads of times and im starting to notice some behaviour that i would not expect from this type of game.

When playing from the Blue side, if i leave my bradleys exposed the Kornets engage and hit with no misses and kills first shot.

When playing from the Red side, i can have up to three misses and ive even had a bradley shrug off a hit!

To me it seems the game is giving the TacAI for the opp force a hit percentage boost/buff. This isnt what Combat Mission games have been about and im seriously hoping its a bug that gets squashed fast!

Yes, I have; after one minute Blue team is left with three burning wrecks...

[JonS]

I played again last night. I went right flanking, and lost a total of one man wounded. The Syrian AI got at least 1 x AT-4 shot off, possibly two against my Bradleys, but it missed (actually, it had an in-flight prem when it struck a tree).

Shameless abuse of prior knowledge wins the day

[Broken]

Originally posted by JonS:

Shameless abuse of prior knowledge wins the day

I don't particularly like this scenario because "shameless abuse of prior knowledge" is the only way to have a reasonable chance of winning.

[JonS]

Yeah, but that is largely because the setup area is under observation of the best of the Syrian weapon systems. The abuse is promarily to overcome that limitation. After the initial 'cheat' to get everyone under cover the normal rules of overwatch, combined arms, differential LOS, etc all re-assert themselves.

With some changes to the setup zone - a transverse ridge, or a corner on the road screened by high ground or trees, etc, it's all good again.

Incidentally, this "my set up zones are under observation of the enemy!" problem has been a scen design issue since CMBO. At least. It isn't particularly a problem with CMSF.

[Hev]

I dont mind porly designed scenarios (ie being observed from the get go, i do mind the game making the AI's job easier!

This is a war game and should be about the clash of opposing weapon systems and docterine, it should not be a contest of who the computer gives an advantage to.

[stikkypixie]

The computer doesn't give advantage to anyone.

[Hev]

Then why in the scenario we are talking about do i get different results using the red atgm's then the ai gets using the same weapons.

And this isnt a once in a blue moon thing, EVERY time i play that scenario its the same, the AI's missiles always hit and i get between 50-75% hits and a hit doesnt even garuntee a kill

[stikkypixie]

And mine kill the Bradleys before they even get a chance to move. Were yours under fire?

[Hev]

negative, i fire from the moment i have all targets, usually under a minute in.

When my first salvo goes off im under no fire at all.

[thelmia]

You can win with just the infantry. Kill all the Syrians= total victory. Even if all the Brads die, no big deal.

If you really want to save the Brads, use smoke and pray for good luck.

[Hev]

Smoke doesnt do it either, although more grenades are launched from the bradly (compared to the stryker) the pattern is more random and results in less cover. and due to the raised firing possitions Red occupy the smoke is useless.