unpleasent "hunt" behaviour sometimes...

[Pandur]

ok how to put it without a little video...

when your man in hunt mode see an enemy they cancel the hunt mode and get automaticly a "quick" waypoint to the next action spot. not only is quick not ideal for that job and the distances are sometimes longer than the original hunt command was, but thats another thing, the worst thing is that it happens(about 40% to 50% of the time) that the "quick" waypoint is out of los wich is exactly the opposite of that what you wanted.

you hunt onto a roof, spot something far away while in the "stair well" and if you where not "close enough" to the roof to get the "quick" waypoint there it gets plotted back 1 lvl deeper where you came from. as one can think in WeGo you see that and its a pain as it renders a whole turn useless or destroyed an cobined move into enemy LOS becouse one or more squads decide to turn around and go back out of LOS after the enemy is spotted(cowardice in face of the enemy!?).

that happened to me with roofs and with all kind of crests mostly. but can occour everywhere in the right situation.

i hope that wont stay to be a feature.

[ August 13, 2007, 03:12 AM: Message edited by: Pandur ]

[Pandur]

BUMP

ok, i gave this thread a week. is everyone happy with this behaviour or did noone notice that so far!?

i cant belive that noone feels about posting about this, its major pain.

not even, "i dont care" or something like this?!

[sandy]

I agree that it is a major pain which I notice every time I play CMSF.

A beatiful example of how CM1 beats CMSF, and why I am so disappointed.

Is it a bug, or a feature of the improved engine? - I wish I knew

[jomni]

But isn't this logical?

Hunt means walk cautiously until you see the enemy.

When you see the enemy run for cover and take firing positions.

This is probably an AI self-preservation logic.

I'd rather have this than your infantry shooting all-out and exposing themselves, or something doing the crawl of death.

[Pandur]

When you see the enemy run for cover and take firing positions.

the problem is when they see the enemy they dont run for cover but they run out of LOS(wich is too much cover!).

you cant explain the abstracted action spot sytem as "feature" where they run into cover

currently hunt means, as often as the game decides to place the quick waypoint out of los, said in your sentence ->

Hunt means walk cautiously until you see the enemy...

...and than turn around and run out of sight as soon as you spotted the enemy.

thats not what the manual says...and i dont have to look that up.

EDIT:

...or a feature of the improved engine?

its a "feature" to 98% sure.

action spots call for it...

[thewood]

I am somewhat concerned the action spot thing is a design foundation that may not be addressable. Infantry seem to live and die on the action point. Doesn't seem to be an issue with vehicles. I have yet to see BFC address the automatic quick. Its one of those things that frustrates me so much that I have stopped playing infantry battles until 1.03 comes out to see if it fixes it.

I am also surprised that all the discussions around and no one's talking about it.

[Pandur]

thewood, thats a good point in mid of your sentence that vehicles dont have to use the action spots, or at least not like inf does.

i also wonder why...meybe becouse there are overall less vehicles than infantry so they can be implemented less "abstracted"!?

as it is now i would really like to have the waypoint feature as "abstracted" as the terrain for infantry. means i can just plot a whypoint where it is technicaly possible.

or meybe said even clearer, let us just plot waypoints from action spot to action spot, center to center. i think this would fit to the amount of abstraction we currently have with infantry.

so, one would get a feel how this action spot stuff works and no control is taken away since it works the same way as now but the waypoints make you wrongly belive you can move your infantry as precises as in CMx1...(aside from pathfinding).

this however, wouldnt do away with the strange hunt behaviour.

[SlapHappy]

I think what is happening here is that infantry squads have to do a number of preparatory steps in the game logic to be able to respond to a threat.

For example, if you unload a group of infantry from a stryker they will continue to perform their off-load action sequence even if they come under heavy fire. Sometimes at the expense of several casualties before they can/will respond. I mean, I've never seen a couple grunts jump off the tailgate, take fire and then immediately fire back. It's always: Begin pile out...enemy fire...continue methodical pile out...take casualty...ending of pile out...take casualty...wander around vehicle aimlessly....take a couple more casualties....drop to ground...casualty....slowly turn to face threat...etc. etc. ad nauseum.

'least that's been my experience...

[Pandur]

as far as i can see it, it gets taken as "feature" by now. at least a few people think that way

i hope 1.04 makes this pain go away...

[The_Capt]

Hey Pandur,

Can yo send a screenshot of what you are seeing? Are we talking "Hunt" followed by another move order? Then when under fire the troops revert to the next order?

[Pandur]

hehe, well, in fact while getting mad about this in nearly every scenario i play, i recorded 2 videos wich show this but they are 500mb+ size...i would need to get virtualDUB or similar somehow and upload this at raphidshare or so.

its hard to capture with a screenshot. the fact that the path wont get showen(or better said, cant possibly be showen) in the replay doesnt make it easier becouse i cant "alt+tab" every 2 seconds and paste the screen in paint and "save as" to do a screenshot "series"

i "think" the 3rd screen in your "Surviving Urban Ops #1- long post" thread shows exactly this! its a fast waypoint after contact, where they are supposed to "stop" after hunting but dont do it and rush to the next action spot!?

i suspect its the same as with every other waypoint. you cant effectively order a "stop" command, but just order a "rush to next action spot" command. your man will never stop on point when you manualy cancel an order with backspace.

and this effectively leaves hunt with this "unpleasent" behaviour since their hunt order is canceled and they rush to the nearby action spot wich can be out of los as often as in los based on what i expirienced in scenarios.

still, a picture tells more than a thousend words, so i try to get some pictures...

EDIT:

Are we talking "Hunt" followed by another move order?

no, just one waypoint, "hunt".

clear example;

one squad in the 4th floor, above is the roof.

they are tasked to hunt onto the roof. half way in the "(invisible)stairwell" they spot a target, cancel hunt, and get their "rush to actionspot" thingy back into the 4th floor where they are out of los again.

now if you gave this order to 3 squads and 2 turn around, the 3rd gets a beating, good exchange rate for you so to say

pretty frustrating.

EDIT2:

damn iam thinking slow, but its early...

i did the videos with fraps, wich can also capture screens with the press of a button.

i should manage to get some screens...

[ September 07, 2007, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Pandur ]

[Pandur]

ok, done. here are some screenshots...

most of them are pretty selfexpaining.

as these are shot with just short breaks in between i suggest to save all screens in a folder and than slide through them with some picture viewer.

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

here, it starts...as you can see the waypoint is placed not where they are supposed to end up.

but i explained above allready enough "what" happens but here you an "see" it.

8

[Pandur]

9

10

11

12

13

14

this is how they end up 2 seconds befor the round end. and nothing guarantees you that it wont happen again next round

obviously thats not the optimum for wego´ers.

[The_Capt]

Pandur,

First off excellent photos. We could have gone back and forth try to describe what was happening but the pictures do show it all.

So lets break it down. First off you used hunt to enter the buildings. Hunt in CMSF appears to be like Contact was in the old CMx1. Essentially move until you spot the enemy, then take cover and engage if possible...if not stay alive.

So as you are moving your two squads forward they see a T-72 MBT front on. You two sections are carrying an unguided RPG 7s an old weapon that will probably not do much front on, particularly if the tank has reactive armour. The RPG 7 also has a nasty black-blast feature that makes firing it inside a building very hazardous.

More startling for your troops is the fact that the T-72 has a 125mm gun on it and considering it is in an urban eviron, said gun is most likely loaded with HE. IF it spots your squads they are going to die..violently.

So your squads did exactly what any sane men would do..they got the hell out of there, this would be in the form of a new waypoint away from the tank. The good news is that they are still alive and you know where that tank is.

I would be interested to see the results for the other move commands. I am willing to bet the troops stay in the building, at which point you would have to pull them out manually...most likely with casualties.

[Pandur]

so ok, i think too its broken.

its not supposed to be "shoot and scoot", you should need to do that with pause between waypoints.

quoteing myself;

quote: "When you see the enemy run for cover and take firing positions."

the problem is when they see the enemy they dont run for cover but they run out of LOS(wich is too much cover!).

you cant explain the abstracted action spot sytem as "feature" where they run into cover

fact is when i put a MG team instead of a tank my man will also decide to go away becous its not a feature but a bug...or verry unpleasent side effekt.

no fancy explaination needed.

[The_Capt]

Pandur,

I wouldn't say "broken or a bug" probably just too cautious for your type of play. I think you are looking for an aggressive hunt command..not a bad idea really.

What I would do for now is have a point squad or element use hunt and then have a back up squad or element behind them. Once the lead squad sees something and gets spooked you can move the assault element/squad in quickly (in fact use Quick or Fast) to engage. The idea here is to bring firepower to bear quickly...unless you are way outgunned.

[Pandur]

I wouldn't say "broken or a bug" probably just too cautious for your type of play.

exactly! thats right, but unfortunately i think that the current hunt behaviour is not intended to be that cautious as it is now.

at least the manual doesnt tell...

"ask the manual"

the manual says that; they stop on point. nothing like, "they run out of los when they spott an enemy unit", or "units are prone to thinking and could quit your order if the "hunt" was succesfull"

so in the end iam just asking for a propper hunt behaviour, as many others do too in other threadsas this clearly doesnt live up with 1:1 representation here.

.

you can move the assault element/squad in quickly (in fact use Quick or Fast) to engage

hehe, thats my workaround allready but it leaves much to desire.

quick lets say, leaves me spotted when i rush into a house the moment i enter it more often than not. if i would have the suprise element, id lost it in that moment.

i find my guys taking fire, wich is intended, but unessesary early...

my most favourite command is assault, but it brings firepower not exactly "rapide"

also thats all workarounds, unfortunately.

[The_Capt]

Pandur,

I just saw an ingame demonstration of what your are talking about...I now feel your pain..come here and gimme a hug...

[Pandur]

now that you saw it, what would you call it!?

clearly bug or broken isnt totaly right since the engine calls for it. thats why i named it "unpleasent" hunt behaviour or "side effect".

"feature" is clearly too forgiving

as stated above it will be verry hard to get rid of it, or make it less painfull in some way.

i hope that steve or someone meybe, has something to say about this. i mean, i dont ask to make it magically perfect by tomorrow, but there should be something that could be done about it.

i couldnt think of "many" options right now but lets see.