The DesertFox Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Originally posted by Hotti: I know you've propably tried loads of stuff and if you think me posting stuff like this is futile then I wont be offended. I just feel like if there's anything I can do to help I'll gladly do so. Guys, I did some tests on my two Machines. Materials and Methods: Hardware: 1. Vista32-8800GTS-C2D6600@3,3/2,4/1,8Ghz 2. Vista64-7950GT-C2D6300@2,4/1,8Ghz Software: 1. CMSF 1.2 2. CMSF 1.3 3. FRAPS [http://fraps.softonic.de/] 4. OpenGL FUR Rendering Benchmark [http://downloads.guru3d.com/download.php?det=1717] 5. Forceware 163.44 Environment: NVIDIA: controlcenter set to application control threaded optimisation=off CMSF: Display=1600x1200 VSync=off 3D-Model=Better 3D-Texture=Best AA=on High Priority=on FOW=Elite WEGO mode Allah´s fist loaded as blue player, looking down the map without touching the mouse Results: Vista32-8800GTS-C2D@3,3Ghz -CMSF_1.2 = 9 FPS -CMSF_1.3 = 4 FPS -OpenGL = 1796 Vista32-8800GTS-C2D@2,4Ghz -CMSF_1.2 = 9 FPS -CMSF_1.3 = 4 FPS -OpenGL = 1795 Vista32-8800GTS-C2D@1,8Ghz -CMSF_1.2 = 9 FPS -CMSF_1.3 = 4 FPS -OpenGL = 1793 Vista64-7950GT-C2D@2,4Ghz -CMSF_1.2 = 15 FPS -CMSF_1.3 = 8 FPS -OpenGL = 1158 Vista32-7950GT-C2D@1,8Ghz -CMSF_1.2 = 13 FPS -CMSF_1.3 = 7 FPS -OpenGL = 1064 Summary: The OpenGL Benchmark performs as expected. In case of the 8800GTS no CPU dependency can be seen. In case of the 7950GT performance positively correlates with CPU clock. Differences between 7950GT and 8800GTS are 60-70% due to the higher performance of the 8800GTS hardware. Conclusion: The NVIDIA drivers are working perfectly well with both the 8800GTS and the 7950GT in the tested environment. CMSF performance in patch 1.2 and patch 1.3 is CPU independant on the 8800GTS. In case of the 7950GT CMSF performance positively corellates with CPU clock. FPS differences between patch 1.2 and patch 1.3 are 90-110%, hardware independant and negatively correlate with increasing patch number. FPS differences between 7950GT and 8800GTS range between 40-75% for 1,8Ghz and 66-100% for 2,4Ghz and are consistantly higher for the 7950GT in all situations tested. Final conclusion: In contrast to the OpenGL benchmark, CMSF utilisation of OpenGL negatively corellates with GPU hardware performance. Or in other words, what we all know: THERE IS FRIGGIN WORK TO BE DONE, FIX OR DO SOMEFINK Interesting sideresult which was unexpected: Patch 1.3 significantly decreased FPS to about 50% of patch 1.2 performance. This is consistent and independant of the hardware tested. BFC, If you are trying to increase FPS in your app, please stopp going into the direction you are heading, it seems like you are suffering from some pathfinding issues cheers Helge 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Originally posted by The DesertFox: Final conclusion: ...Or in other words, what we all know: THERE IS FRIGGIN WORK TO BE DONE, FIX OR DO SOMEFINK cheers Helge Exactly! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper5 Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 I have the 8800 GTX and NForce 680i motherboard. I have posted a workaround that works because it disables CMSF control over the graphics. That is, setting all the graphics to BALANCED seems to switch off software rendering and allow the card to control, which is set to overide application preference. So the result is graphics that look like the BEST setting (even though it's set at balanced)but FPS at least 30 which is what you'd expect from this card. I have just tried running the game with the driver the card came with namely 65.1. Set everything at max and got grappy results. I'm not an expert like you guys, but I think there is a clitch in the CMSF program that does not allow hardware rendering and it's related to the BALANCED setting. It has nothing to do with the driver. I running the current BETA driver and getting better results than with 162.18. (the intro graphic shows up now!!) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtweasle Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Originally posted by Trooper5: I have the 8800 GTX and NForce 680i motherboard. I have posted a workaround that works because it disables CMSF control over the graphics. I tried it last night with no success. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelmia Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Listen to this guy! He's on to something. The workaround gives me max graphics with best FPS. Even if it's not working for everyone, it's interesting that it works for some. Why is that? http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=000349 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekra Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 But the thing is I'm not looking for a workaround.. I'm looking for whatever it might be causing the problems and trying to find something that could FIX it. Imo workaround is not a fix. I dont think it will help BFC at all if there is a workaround. I'm hoping the code that fixes multi-core problems will help a bit but I really want to find WHY this thing is happening in the first place. Also what strikes me odd is that all the other problems with opengl and other games can be fixed one way or another from what I've been reading from Nvidia forums but none of these help with CM: SF. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekra Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 Okay I just tried this "workaround" of yours and it actually works around nothing. The same errors pop up all in the same places as they do in with better gfx settings in my earlier experiments. I did notice an increase in FPS but its propably just because gfx detail was lowered enough for my processor (Intel C2D E6400) to handle everything better. (tested with Allahs Fist again) Renderer still keeps falling back to software rendering. If my processor alone can manage to make the game work like this I should be running like 400fps with my GF8800GTS hardware which has as much power alone as a 8 year old computer. I too am starting to believe that this is not a driver issue but that there is something very very wrong in the very core of the CM2x graphics engine. Maybe you coded the very game itself in software rendering mode without even knowing it? [ September 05, 2007, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Hotti ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper5 Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 My workaround is just that! It works for some, and I'm happy that the game works great for me. I've shared my findings with you cause I'm a nice guy, but Battlefront still has to solve the problem. I still think there programming is at fault not the driver. Bye the way Hotti, if my workaround worked for you, you would'nt be complaining anymore. PS. People with way smaller computers than you and I have are getting excellent results from this setup. [ September 05, 2007, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Trooper5 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knaust1 Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 Originally posted by Trooper5: My workaround is just that! It works for some, and I'm happy that the game works great for me. I've shared my findings with you cause I'm a nice guy, but Battlefront still has to solve the problem. I still think there programming is at fault not the driver. Bye the way Hotti, if my workaround worked for you, you would'nt be complaining anymore. PS. People with way smaller computers than you and I have are getting excellent results from this setup. smuack... ...thx buddy...the most I can get from my puter 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekra Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 But your "workaround" actually works around nothing related to this problem we are having. Sure it increases your (and as I said it does increase mine too but you misunderstand that I'm looking for better FPS. NO. I'm looking to fix this problem which your workaround does not.) FPS but it is only because the load that the CPU (not the GPU as it SHOULD be) gets is lower because of lower level graphics. Actually I have a better "workaround" than yours. Turn all graphics settings to "Fastest" and it will show a HUGE increase in FPS (but still the same errors occur as with the setting set to "Best")!!! And again this workaround solves as much as yours, and that is nothing. If you like paying 500 euros for a graphics card which doesnt seem to do SQUAT atm (since that IS what software rendering means, your 3D hardware is NOT in use!!) fine by me. What I want is that the game would actually use the 3D hardware my 8800GTS has. I will say this again, I am NOT trying to increase FPS at all costs or at any costs, I'm trying to find out why the game cannot use my 3D hardware. And this "workaround" doesn't make the 3D hardware active when running the game. Same errors as with Best gfx settings. You and I are talking about two totally different things here. So please lets stay on the topic of this thread! So no more workarounds here please. If you have some info about the OpenGL drivers and why they are acting like they are post THAT info here. [ September 05, 2007, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Hotti ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper5 Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 You don't get it! What my setup does is give control to my video card and it works. Obviously not for you. Battlefront should try to find out why this works. PS Keep you're piss ass attitude to your self. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekra Posted September 5, 2007 Author Share Posted September 5, 2007 In case you didnt read the beginning of this thread. I am running a diagnostics program for opengl applications with a set of diagnostics drivers made by nvidia and wether I have your settings or not I get the same errors, the game is falling back to software rendering. what part of this you dont understand? I will try to write this so you too can understand what I'm saying: 1. I get better FPS as you said yes that is true and the game runs smoothly with my setup too and I never questioned this. (and all i did btw is tune down the settings to "balanced" leaving AA etc for CM SF to handle) 2. It still doesnt fix the problem which I can clearly see every time I run CM: SF with these diagnostics drivers from nvidia that the game falls back to software rendering. Hey if you think you solved it, download the PerfKit and see for yourself! Install the set, configure GLExpert to show all error (tick all the boxes) and tell it to show them in console. Fire up the game and as soon as you click one unit it will pop up the errorconsole with the notification of falling back to software rendering. 3. What you do is you lower the gfx detail which frees up the resources of your CPU to produce better Frames-Per-Second 4. Since your CPU is doing the calculating of the graphics too obviously lowering gfx detail gets better FPS thus the reason your solution "seems" to work. As does my version of tuning down the graphics to fastest. It gets even better results because the processor gets even less load. If you don't understand what I am doing then I can't help you any further. The problem STILL persists and I am allready wasting my time with you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper5 Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 I don't care anymore Hotti, do what ever you want. Now, I'm going back to my game of CMSF which happens to perform brilliantly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peleprodigy Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Well, if my problem was solved and I was getting great frames at high quality with a workaround then you wouldn't see me posting at this board anymore. Well, I would post one time to let my fellow board members know about it, but then I would be off to gaming In my opinion,the 'fix' does not do anything other than lower visual quality. Either a program uses hardware or software rendering, you can't 'trick it' into using hardware. try this: do all that stuff you are talking about, but then while in game increase the model detail to 'best'. you will absolutely, positively see a definite, visually obvious, increase in the graphical detail. proof that you are not running the game at best/best max settings, as you claim. all you are doing is running everything at balanced settings, which of course results in higher frame rates because there is less graphical detail for the software to render. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peleprodigy Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 My fingers are crossed that the recent absence of battlefront from this board means that they are hot on the trail of the problem and working to quash it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper5 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 I can see the shadows from the slat armour on the strykers hull, the treads in the tires and everything else. Plus I get at least 30 fps. That is the BEST it gets, and the way it was intented. MY 8800 GTX IS DOING THIS!!! THIS IS NOT SOFTWARE RENDERING!! The reason is because I've set up the 8800 to overide the game graphic settings. When you put it to BEST and get crappy frames it's because you've given control back to the game. Only the balanced setting disables game control. [ September 05, 2007, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Trooper5 ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peleprodigy Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Except your explanation makes no sense. where in any game documentation does it say that balanced settings give the graphics card full control over the graphics? Or are you simply making this up? like I said, if your game was truly fixed to the extent which you claimed, you wouldn't be such an avid participant of this thread, you would be playing. so go play, enjoy your wonderfully performing game while the rest of us await a true fix 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 We're still on it, for sure. We've cleared up some side issues with v1.04 beta, but the poor framerate performance for some 8800s is still a mystery. Hotti, Charles disabled the code that the tool said was causing the rendering to go into software mode. It made not a bit of difference. This isn't terribly surprising since those diagnostic tools are quite blunt intstruments. Meaning, the tool produced a lead, but it was a red herring. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 DesertFox, Thanks for the stats! The fact that v1.03 produces a lower rate for your 8800 card is not surprising given the problems it already has and the settings you chose (i.e. the better ones). However, I'm surprised at your 7950 card results. That's much lower than I would expect. Hmmm... this could mean that there is some sort of other hardware/software interaction at work. Some people have suggested motherboards and other things like that. It is entirely possible, though unlikely. We have started to research similar problems experienced by other applications to see what they've found out. We'll get to the bottom of this, but I have to say we're as frustrated by this as you. I hope I never, ever have to find something in my email program with the numbers 8800 in it. I'll get a bezillion hits! Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sekra Posted September 6, 2007 Author Share Posted September 6, 2007 Darn. So were back to square one with this. Well I will keep poking around with various stuff to see if I can find more. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 DesertFox, I forgot to mention that if you want level tests between v1.02 and v1.03 you need to use the "Improved" settings or lower. The reason for that is the Better/Best settings use new drawing code in v1.03 that gives a lot more detail but lowers the framerate. Ironically, this new setting should work great on the 8800 card due to the performance the card has to offer. But obviously if your 8800 card is one that is choking on v1.02, it is going to gag on v1.03's top settings. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Hi Hotti, Darn. So were back to square one with this. Well I will keep poking around with various stuff to see if I can find more.The more we talk about how this and that thing are interacting, and what different settings do or don't do, the better idea we have about what is going on. At some point a piece will fall into place and we'll have the problem identified, if not solved. Thanks, Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Originally posted by Hotti: Darn. So were back to square one with this. Well I will keep poking around with various stuff to see if I can find more. Hotti, do you have any chance to check if a non 8800 card like Geforce7/6 also falls back into software rendering mode? cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: DesertFox, I forgot to mention that if you want level tests between v1.02 and v1.03 you need to use the "Improved" settings or lower. The reason for that is the Better/Best settings use new drawing code in v1.03 that gives a lot more detail but lowers the framerate. Ironically, this new setting should work great on the 8800 card due to the performance the card has to offer. But obviously if your 8800 card is one that is choking on v1.02, it is going to gag on v1.03's top settings. Steve Oh the irony However, I might give it a shot. Just so that I did not missunderstand you: In "improved" or lower settings 1.02 and 1.03 use the same code ? And in 1.03 above "improved" settings new "optimized" code for 8800s is used? Well you see the results of this "optimized" code above don´t you ? You also see that this "new" code has heavy impact on 7950GT performance ? cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Originally posted by Battlefront.com: I'm surprised at your 7950 card results. That's much lower than I would expect. Hmmm... this could mean that there is some sort of other hardware/software interaction at work. Steve, and I have disabled "Threaded optimisation". If I would have set it to "auto" as it is at default, the FPS for the 7950GT would have been half of what you see above. That´s the reason why I also ran an independant OpenGL software test. To make sure that we don´t see driver issue here. As you can see the result of this test is what can be expected. The 8800 performing significantly better than the 7950GT. In theory the 8800 should indeed perform significantly better than a 7950GX2 which is a sandwich of 2 GF-7 cards. And in fact the 8800GTS delivers this performance when it comes to other OpenGL software like Doom3 or Quake4 or the brand new UT3-engine and the reworked Q4-engine as in QuakeWars. Maybe calling John Carmack might get you on track with this strange behaviour of your engine ? As for the MoBo: Dunno, its a plain simple Intel P945 chipset which works on the Vista64 machine (ASUS P5BL2, latest Bios) On the Vista32 machine we have a Intel P965 chipset at work (ASUS P5B Deluxe Wifi, latest Bios) [ September 06, 2007, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: The DesertFox ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.