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Originally posted by Moon:

In fact, I am not sure if some of the items you mention need a fix at all.

Martin

Translation:

"Most of the biggest flaws are so deeply coded that they're not fixable without a total re-write, so I'm going to twist them to look like they're correct and proper functions so we can ignore them and press on with pointless and inconsequential tweaks".

Who do you think you're kidding?

Fact: This game is a turd, that is selling like a turd, and is already being flushed due to the slating it is recieving in reviews across the internet.

Kiss ToW goodbye Moon, it's gone.

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Originally posted by Chazman:

Moon, better check out the Gamespot player reviews, TOW went from 7.2 to 6.9 in short order.

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/theatreofwar/index.html?q=theatre%20of%20war&tag=result;title;0

This is your bloody review, not gamespot review, the same in wich you said you played ilusion 2 from 1c (it is Ilyushin), where you said the game has no LOS, cover or concealment (absolutely wrong, did you even played the game) and the maps were barren terrain (not in the game i am playing)the AI was stupid( but good enough to beat you sistematicaly), and you finish it saying the game was crap and give it a classification of 3.

And you call me asinine.

Quite mature of you.

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I never played CM so I guess I cannot compare but am familiar with RTS games of the era and must admit TOW is a relief to play. I have been holding out on buying games such as company of heroes because they are just too damn arcadish.

Finally I can play a realistic (maybe flawed) game that allows things that really matter, such as crew and skill management. If this makes me a fanboy than so be it.

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Chazman, I don't think anyone from 1C or BFC has said all the things on your list are broken and need fixing.

In the "Human fodder for the omnipotent AI." thread this morning I posted something that may help you understand what you are seeing on the screen better. I think a lot of people are seeing the trees and believing they are respresenting patches of woods or forest when what they are really respresenting are individual trees. So what is happening is because it isn't behaving like a patch of woods people are thinking it is broken when in fact it is behaving just as you would expect. I haven't experienced the lack of cover or concealment that you mention for infantry at all. If I put a guy behind a bush in the prone position and issue him a hold position and a hold fire order that will usually do the trick for me. Have you had a chance to try that?

T34 thing may be a valid point. I will have to play with that more myself.

That was talked about long before the release of the game. I consider it a flaw of the game but it hasn't stopped me from having fun. I would be shocked if that changed.

The camera controls are very easy to use and alter to be whatever you what them to be. Having the rotate left and right be the left and right arrows was awkward for me so I changed them to the A and S keys. Takes seconds to do. So take a second and think about how YOU would like them to be different and then go into the camera control panel and change them. The camera controls in this have much more depth than CM. It has a tilt feature and not just a fixed number of viewing angles. You can literaly view the game from any angle you want something that CM doesn't offer.

The users units will do what you tell them to do. If you don't tell them to do something they will take the initiative. If a tank is turning its facing it is most likely doing it for a reason you are not noticing. If a unit is getting upit may be because you didn't issue a prone order. There is a line with a real time game where have to balance how much the AI is responsible for with your units and how much the player is responsible. That balance will be different from player to player. Some people may want/need the AI to do more of the work and some people want to decide for themselves whattheir units should be doing. So designing you have to come up with a balance that you feel is most lekely to satisfy both types of players and everyone in between. Not everyone is going to be happy but it doesn't mean it's broken and in need of being fixed. It only means it isn't right for.

ect,ect,ect,ect? By these I assume you mean some of the tech issues that people are having like frame rate and loading the game and such. Well, Moon says they are on the top of the list for fixing.

Hope this was helpful.

Elvis

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"This is your bloody review, not gamespot review"

Last time I checked there it was 28 reveiws, 5 written, and only one of them was good (was that you?), nice try to obsfucate, no cigar though!

TOW started at a 7.2, and has now sunk to a 6.6, are you guys still in denial?

[ May 01, 2007, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Chazman ]

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"Chazman, all of these issues will be looked at. If they will be fixed is another question, which I can only answer after we have a patch ready and in testing. In fact, I am not sure if some of the items you mention need a fix at all."

If you can't fix this LOS problem, the game is basicly beyond repair and unplayable. Having my prone infantry (in high grass) being mowed down from across the map, through two to three rows of trees and bushes, just isn't cutting it.

How can a game with no cover or concealment be even mentioned as war game at all?

How can a war game where the infantry can't enter a building, be called a war game.

I'm sure you guys can fix the Uber Soviet tank problems, but if you can't fix the above two, you have Mucho Problemos mi Amigo!

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"played ilusion 2 from 1c (it is Ilyushin), where you said the game has no LOS, cover or concealment (absolutely wrong, did you even played the game) and the maps were barren terrain (not in the game i am playing"

I never stated that Il2 had no cover or concealment, I stated TOW apparently has none, and the maps might as well be barren, as the trees, and bushes appear to be just eye candy, the AI sees through eveything and starts picking off your troops from across the map, almost immediately no matter how many tree lines and bushes that are in between.

Try regular reading of my posts, not your apparent "speed reading" where you seem to gloss over every other word.

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Originally posted by Chazman:

"Chazman, all of these issues will be looked at. If they will be fixed is another question, which I can only answer after we have a patch ready and in testing. In fact, I am not sure if some of the items you mention need a fix at all."

If you can't fix this LOS problem, the game is basicly beyond repair and unplayable. Having my prone infantry (in high grass) being mowed down from across the map, through two to three rows of trees and bushes, just isn't cutting it.

How can a game with no cover or concealment be even mentioned as war game at all?

How can a war game where the infantry can't enter a building, be called a war game.

I'm sure you guys can fix the Uber Soviet tank problems, but if you can't fix the above two, you have Mucho Problemos mi Amigo!

Wow, you seem to care a lot about our problemos.

Martin

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Originally posted by Moon:

Krull, if you would spend more time reading and less time parroting, you would not be called a whiner. Well, you'll have plenty of time for reading now.

Martin

are you insinuating that he's banned?

:confused:

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Originally posted by Elvis:

Chazman, I don't think anyone from 1C or BFC has said all the things on your list are broken and need fixing.

In the "Human fodder for the omnipotent AI." thread this morning I posted something that may help you understand what you are seeing on the screen better. I think a lot of people are seeing the trees and believing they are respresenting patches of woods or forest when what they are really respresenting are individual trees. So what is happening is because it isn't behaving like a patch of woods people are thinking it is broken when in fact it is behaving just as you would expect.

....

Elvis

Hello Elvis, see my post in the AI thread. I think it's the other way around... that trees or bushs in ToW ARE representing patches (although smaller ones than CM due to the overall scale) and not what you actually see, thus what looks like a totally blocked view due to a big bush (as we've seen in screen shots) is only degrading LOS because it's based on LOS tables like CM and not what you see in game. Not much of a shock in CM where it's stated the trees/bushes are there just for visual pleasure and the whole game is more abstract (no individial troops, birds eye view, LOS tools etc.). Much more of one in ToW where things are not abstract as everthing is represented, and with all the first person viewpoint usage (even the special quick camera lock), you get to expect 'what you see is what you get' as you would get in a first person shooter using the same perspective.

Just the fact that you would save so much CPU power this way (instead of having to trace every LOS through every tree using real ray tracing) makes me think it works this way... and from the weird LOS effects we see in ToW.

T.

[ May 01, 2007, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Tontoman ]

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Moon,

I understand your post and I believe the posts are for this purpose to help in the next phase of computer products. I dont agree in bashing the individuals who post since they are the customers of the games. I know at times it gets personal but Krull is giving his honest opinion and we should respect that and hopefully do better next time so he purchases the next game. I know I should have waited longer to purchase but I didnt. I purchased due to the fact that I like Battlefront, plain and simple. I appreciate the fact that a new type of game is being developed. Overall, it looks nice, probably will play better when the patches come out and the camera controls are tough to get around. Perhaps, a little of the empire earth, rise of nations ideas. However, lets all get along and make this type of effort a postive one, respect each opinion and work for an improvement. I purchased battlefield 2 over 2 yrs ago, have all the mods and still love playing it. I play in campaigns and tournaments and I definitely got my $ worth. Great product in my opinion

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huhr, err, no. What you write applies to the majority of users here who posted their opinion of the game and constructive criticism, but it does not apply to Krull and a couple others which were banned since yesterday (including Billybob). Krull admitted in at least a couple of posts that he's only posting here for the fun of stirring up trouble, and Billybob went completely ballistic this morning and showed his real motivation.

These guys have NOTHING to do with the majority of other customers, and their motivation for posting here was entirely different. Maybe not from the start, but it evolved into downright trolling. Hence the ban.

Since everyone else is still here, including yourself, Chazman and others, it should be clear that this is not an assault on free speech. If we wanted to do that, we'd do what other publisher boards do and simply delete the whole thing. Therefore it is pointless to remind me of getting along and respecting other opinions, because it is on our boards and under our rules that you are able to post it in the first place.

Martin

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Moon,

There is already on some forums post by some persons how majority of gamers who bought the game are not satisfied with this game...

Let me say something about this...

As preorders of this game was few thousands (that is almost number as some wargames are sold these days :D ) I don't see so many whiners and complainers...

Maybe some have clearly some other agenda and ToW is good excuse to attack BFC through this game.

Nobody is against complaints per se! Even from the plane is visible that this game has some flaws - but nowadays it is question more which game has not the problem with 1.0 version.

I think that it is good that developers has shown dedication with planned add-ons, possible mission packs etc that they will as well works on improving the game. So it is just matter of time. Better than to scrap the game and not release it at all me thinks!

I am not fanboy and would not want to be labeled as such.

ToW is really best looking wargame ever released. No other company right now have better looking wargame. That is also an accomplishment for BFC.

Gameplay is not such a hell like some want to portray this.

Working in 3D engine is not so easy. I am thinking that that "infantry in the buildings" feature would be implemented if it was so easy to put it. And many others. So it was not intended to be a copy paste of Close Combat in 3D engine. We must not overlook that aspect of ToW - that it tries to achieve a greatness. With more time maybe it will achieve that and maybe not. I would also want that this is like Battlefield 2 or Total War games in version 1.0 but unfortunately it is not.

Those attacks on BFC and 1C have got way out of normal... Why then competition doesn't deliver better game then this? You cannot have everything obviously - best graphics and best gameplay for Gods out of the box... Competition is there and I dare challenge them to make better game. Market is free so two years fast forward maybe they will make something. And maybe they will not. And 1C can only IMPROVE this game in that period. So patience...

Mario

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Ok Chazman i will read your so called review slower.

By Chazman at Gamespot player review.

"Big Disappointment

I have been a fan of Battlefront and 1C games for years, owning the great Combat Mission series and Ilusion2 flight simulators from these respective companies.

TOW on the other hand is a complete disappointment, the game is almost unplayable,and certainly not FUN.

There is a complete lack of LOS/LOF in that nothing blocks the view of the AI enemy, it is like the entire map is feature less when it comes to LOS, rows of trees, buildings, grass, etc, nothing can be hid behind for cover.

The enemy AI will spot your infantry lying prone in high grass from over 500 meters and pick them off.

Manuvering around the camera to get a close up of the action is an excerise in futality, and most the time by the time you have zoomed in the action is already over.

Your troops wander around aimlessly and don't seem to heed any of your commands, etc. etc.

Troops cannot enter buildings, there are no portable machine guns or mortars, no digging in, no placeable mines, fortifications, or camoflage, etc. etc. The game stinks! "

OK what i think of your review Chazman is:

1-There is no game called Ilusion2 from 1C Company. It is called Il2-Sturmovik, Il means something like Ilyushin.

2-Game almost unplayable and no fun. (For me is playable are extremely fun)

3-There are many things in wich you can cover behind, buildings, walls, trees, hills, tanks and vehicles etc.. You said there was no cover at all.

4-Are you saying you put your infantry in open ground at 500m from the enemy and eventualy they get killed, not surprising, try hide them or give them support.

5-You can´t handle the camera ? Have you tryed the middle mouse buton, after a couple of hours play, the camera controls look good.

6-My troops follow my orders, in fact if i order them to hold fire and hold ground, they stood and get slaughtered whitout complaint (that is good discipline eheh).

7-Everithing you said in this point, is in combat mission series(a great game) this is a diferent game, it will eventually get some of this things.

I recomend you to try Combat Mission Shock Force when it gets out.

8-Conclusion of your review, game stinks, quite mature of you.

It doesn´t stinks for me, i just whished people who likes the game where not treated as morons, and would have a chance to try the demo and form an opinion by themselves.

Most of people disapointed by this game are putting good constructive posts, as how to get the game better, these people are good gamers, ToW needs gamers like these, i like these gamers, they put effort getting the game better.

You Chazman only call the game trash, called me asinine, saided in other post to someone to shut up and brush their teeth because they smelled like s...

Enough of this talk, i am sorry for this long and useless post.

I will try to enjoy the game and ignore the posts i find isultuous from now on. :(

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thanks moon i understand your point of view and didnt know the agenda of others, i'll try to play some more and see how it pans out and I wasnt trying to make any specific accusations but these posts can get crazy at times. you guys are trying to do your best and thats about all you can do, i'll just read and see what happens and look for the strategies. I enjoy sc1 and 2 and all the cm games,

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Originally posted by Moon:

but it does not apply to Krull and a couple others which were banned since yesterday (including Billybob). Krull admitted in at least a couple of posts that he's only posting here for the fun of stirring up trouble, and Billybob went completely ballistic this morning and showed his real motivation.

These guys have NOTHING to do with the majority of other customers, and their motivation for posting here was entirely different. Maybe not from the start, but it evolved into downright trolling. Hence the ban.

Even though I have always spoken out for the right of BTS/BF.C to ban people for whatever they deem banworthy on what is after all their private board, and still stick to that, I *do* however take note that these latest bannings seem unusual given the very conservative application of this last resort over the last years. For years I was able to count all people I witnessed banned so far using my fingers, ISTR (Mabye toes, too). And then, it was for real BIG reasons.
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"Wow, you seem to care a lot about our problemos.

Martin"

I have been a big time fan of CM ever since it came out, I have all the versions of it and spent hundreds of hours playing it.

If I didn't care about Battlefront, I wouldn't be so upset, I would just write you off as yet another bogus game company putting out incomplete crap.

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A couple of observations:

People are in too much of a rush to buy today. If you have the luxury of playing a demo, why wouldn't you take it, before laying down the cash? I can't believe all the early buyers, only did so to save what, $10? And if you were expecting this to be CM 4, you didn't read the fine print( or even the large print).

As for the bugs, anyone who has at least a little computer experience, knows that the first release of most software is chock full of them. So, don't buy the first release, wait for the patch, then demo it again, and see if you like it( and if it plays nice with your hardware). It's called being patient, and prudent, something that is in very short supply these days, as some of the comments attest to.

Personally, I have zero interest in this type of game, and wouldn't buy it for $10. I did play it, once, just to see what the hoopla was about, and came away non-plused, but as I said I have zero interest to begin with.

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"You Chazman only call the game trash, called me asinine, saided in other post to someone to shut up and brush their teeth because they smelled like s..."

Reading comprehension isn't your strong suite, is it?

I was speaking about asinine "statements" you make, and the breath was "shill" breath, not the other "S" word.

Think before you start flapping your jibs.

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