About LOS/LOF problems (from devs)

[BDHX]

Calculation algorithm

Aiming at target’s outlines standing out of an obstacle is quite a labor-intensive. Our FPS makes it unviable. That’s why the game uses a simplified aiming pattern. You aim at certain points that may be blocked by real obstacles. It makes a target which should be visible to the player vanish. Visibility is calculated by ray tracing.

Visibility algorithm errors are caused by ray tracing to preset points that may be either blocked by obstacles or, alternatively, visible, although this is not the case with the player (i.e. the player sees the target not being blocked by obstacles).

However, weapon guidance algorithm (a different one) in 50% of cases produces a ‘line of fire not available’ message due to realistic gun elevation angles. Besides there is a 30% chance of failure due to uneven terrain and some

15-20% cases failure is caused by aiming at preset points.

The initial design of the game targeted developing a model being as close to reality as possible, with no additional artificial indicators (like drawing LOF). Basically, the idea is still good and interesting and it is a shame not everybody would like to get used to it.

Currently our team is working over a patch to make LOF visible. This is likely to resolve most problems and rule out misunderstanding of the system.

[BillyBob]

So does that mean that when my man is hidden in long grass, behind a bush, prone, an enemy tank one kilometer away won't be able to spot him and then kill him with the first round it fires?

[ZaPPPa]

Ability to hover over an enemy unit and see the Cover percentage and Chance to hit would help a lot.

For the devs I suggest taking a look at how Jagged Alliance 2 (Gold) gave feedback to the player about cover and line of sight and implementing something similar.

[chanss]

Originally posted by BillyBob:

So does that mean that when my man is hidden in long grass, behind a bush, prone, an enemy tank one kilometer away won't be able to spot him and then kill him with the first round it fires?

Na....it probably means you need a better purpose with your useless life, other than to whine on the forums that is...........

[pad152]

This sounds good, but does not seem to address the inability of infantry to hide/take cover. It seems there is very little cover for infantry and are spotted a lttle to easy by tanks.

[Chazman]

Na....it probably means you need a better purpose with your useless life, other than to whine on the forums that is........... "

Gee, and who could you be, a Battlefront employee, shill, or just a sycophant?

I'm tired of hearing that everyone who isn't thrilled with this game being tagged as a loser, whiner, etc. just because they have the temerity to speak the truth about this game.

I plopped down my hard earned money, on a game that is a total disappointment, I have the right to express my opinion, I PAYED FOR IT!

[seppDieter]

a visible LOF is usefull, but what problem does it solve? the problem people have is that the LOS is apparently being calculated by an aleatory calculation based on probables. so the enemy can see and fire at you, while you cant neccesarely see and fire at him.

this demonstrates that to win, the best tactic is not to use the natural terrain cover, but to work around the engine flaws...

[whaco]

I am confused about the term Line Of Fire. What relevance does it have on LOS if line of sight is modeled correctly in conjuction with terrain, buildings and trees?

[Destraex]

BDHX... first of all thanks for the explanation and thanks for the patch development.... I hope that I will be able to use the LOS tool to check LOS in the beginning and then once i know what is likely and what is not to not bother.

Can you please confirm that trees and bushes do block LOS? Especailly when it comes to infantry who are prone behind large shrubs....

Can you also confirm what preset points mean? Does this mean for example that if a tank can see LOS to one of these preset points on the map from its position that it then gets LOS to the whole sector that the preset point unlocks?

[seppDieter]

Originally posted by whaco:

I am confused about the term Line Of Fire. What relevance does it have on LOS if line of sight is modeled correctly in conjuction with terrain, buildings and trees?

correct me if i am wrong, but i believe LOF line of fire means that when a unit shoots, you can see a line from the barrel to the point of impact (like a tracer)

and LOS line of sight means a visible line between the selected unit and the mouse cursor. and as you move the cursor on the terrain, you can see by the color of the line if the unit can see the area you are pointing at. so you can place your units at the best possible locations where they can cover the desired area with their LOS. without a LOS tool its more like a lottery

[TuuSaR]

If there's "no los/cover problem" then there should be graphics option to remove all leafs from trees and all bushes from the map.

[maniac_mat]

i dont see how making the LOF visible will help anything. the fact is the T34 1000m away and block by multiple trees and bushes, can still see and shoot at my tanks and inf, not only see and shoot at them, but hit with alarming accuracy.

[Fetid]

Unless LOF and LOS are mutual it is not a fair game. You will use proper skill and tactics and still not win. That, my friends, is the waste of time. Not typing a few snippy lines in the forum. The Chazman is right on.

[chanss]

Originally posted by maniac_mat:

i dont see how making the LOF visible will help anything. the fact is the T34 1000m away and block by multiple trees and bushes, can still see and shoot at my tanks and inf, not only see and shoot at them, but hit with alarming accuracy.

So strange with some posts here, its like we are playing a different game. What you are describing never ever happend to me. Could it be dificulty setting that sorta cheats for the AI then? What difficulty are you on? I have been playing mostly on easy as a matter of fact.

[Starlight]

Originally posted by Destraex:

Can you also confirm what preset points mean? Does this mean for example that if a tank can see LOS to one of these preset points on the map from its position that it then gets LOS to the whole sector that the preset point unlocks?

I am guessing here but I think he means if you use one of the Three aiming points - High, Medium or Low), you could have the Low option selected, but the lower part of the target is below an obstacle and so the gun will not fire because it cannot see the specific part of the target its aiming for.

This could also be worse, because the aim point could be the centre of the vehicle and so if its partly behind another vehicle, or partly behind a building you still cannot see the target aim point.

hope that makes sense, thats what i think he was trying to say?

[Krull]

Best i've read yet Starlight.

[flintlock]

Originally posted by BDHX:

Currently our team is working over a patch to make LOF visible.

I enjoy the current system, which brings me to my question regarding the implementation of the adjustment to it in the upcoming patch: will it be a wholesale forced change, or will we be able to disable it in the options menu, for those that appreciate the current effort and don't want artificial indicators?

[HardRock]

Originally posted by flintlock:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BDHX:

Currently our team is working over a patch to make LOF visible.

I enjoy the current system, which brings me to my question regarding the implementation of the adjustment to it in the upcoming patch: will it be a wholesale forced change, or will we be able to disable it in the options menu, for those that appreciate the current effort and don't want artificial indicators? </font>

[luckyorwhat]

I think what the dev said was, "There is no problem with LOS, when we release this tool you'll be able to see for yourself how the 'impossible' shots were possible."

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by luckyorwhat:

I think what the dev said was, "There is no problem with LOS, when we release this tool you'll be able to see for yourself how the 'impossible' shots were possible."

"No problem with LOS". Coo.

How about this...if I go into 1st-person view, and I'm unable to see a given enemy unit, then that enemy unit is unable to see me?

Or is that too realistic for this 'RTS-Lite'?

[Cornfleek]

Originally posted by HardRock:

LOS is a sterile wargaming tool not available to real men in the field.

LOS is NOT available to real men in the field? WTF? As in real men in the field are not able to assess what they see and cannot see if it's hidden? Oh well, who needs an LOS tool anyway, if this tool will just pierce through 3 trees and say, yes, the enemy can see you.

LOS in ToW is a sterile wargaming approximation resulting in see through trees, not available to real men in the field.

[whaco]

Originally posted by HardRock:

I'm with you. As long as they have a "valid" los/lof code I'm good without seeing the indicators. Some people want to see all these LOS lines and check it out in a sterile environment. Well..in real war more often than not..you never saw what hit you. Unless you froze time and brought out your computer and checked LOS to every known unit. LOL!

LOS is a sterile wargaming tool not available to real men in the field.

I agree, personally I don't give a rat's ass if I see a LOS line. Just give me a realistic code where I don't get picked off through ten tree tops, two building walls and one, three foot high grassy field while my men are crawling, and I'll be fine.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by whaco:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HardRock:

I'm with you. As long as they have a "valid" los/lof code I'm good without seeing the indicators. Some people want to see all these LOS lines and check it out in a sterile environment. Well..in real war more often than not..you never saw what hit you. Unless you froze time and brought out your computer and checked LOS to every known unit. LOL!

LOS is a sterile wargaming tool not available to real men in the field.

I agree, personally I don't give a rat's ass if I see a LOS line. Just give me a realistic code where I don't get picked off through ten tree tops, two building walls and one, three foot high grassy field while my men are crawling, and I'll be fine. </font>

[HardRock]

Originally posted by Cornfleek:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HardRock:

LOS is a sterile wargaming tool not available to real men in the field.

LOS is NOT available to real men in the field? WTF? As in real men in the field are not able to assess what they see and cannot see if it's hidden? Oh well, who needs an LOS tool anyway, if this tool will just pierce through 3 trees and say, yes, the enemy can see you.

LOS in ToW is a sterile wargaming approximation resulting in see through trees, not available to real men in the field. </font>

[Chazman]

"And for umpteenth time...tress never blocked LOS. these are trees in the game, not patches of dense forest 500 meters deep!!"

You're kidding right?

The trees in the game are "tree lines", ever heard of the bocage in Normandy, I guess everyone could see right through that too?