Is there Borg spotting? If not what kind of intel comms replaces it?

[Zalgiris 1410]

CMers have a big problem with Borg spotting because it really spoils ambushes and times when an ATG is getting a sideview jump on a Tank etc that is 'looking' else where. While there are of cause spotting and sound contact functionalities in CM, it might be good to know about these kind of things in ToW.

I am wondering about the realism factor of ToW in regards to say for example; how an infantry scout is going to directly pass on information about what's up ahead, around the next corner or two or over the rise to a buttoned up Tank- use the Tank phone or open a hatch if it doesn't have one? What kind of role will runners, phone wires (repairers too) and radio traffic play in the game? How are fortifications such as sandbags around foxholes and trenches going to provide evidence of the enemy? How are track marks going to be handled if at all?

[ July 29, 2006, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[Moon]

From what I have seen units spot individually. You can have one unit engaging another while a unit close to it but without LOS is not going to engage the target. In some recent tests Matt used a lone scout ahead of the main force and was being shot at while not being able to locate the enemy. So all of that seems to be working just great.

Of course the big equalizer is the player himself, who always has overview of the entire battlefield, so once one of your units sees something, you, as the player, can react, regardless if your other units spotted it or not. This is one fundamental problem that pretty much every wargame shares I guess.

Martin

[John Kettler]

Moon,

Can the view be padlocked to units to prevent the battlefield roaming phenomenon? ISTR there was some sort of capability to do this.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Moon]

Yes, when you select a unit and hit enter, then the camera is padlocked to that unit. It's cool, too, because it provides a sort of first person view (or tank commander view for vehicles). It's not 100% at eye level but a little above it, but still is very useful for screenshots and immersion. It's especially at this level that you sometimes see the AI do really cool stuff.

Martin

[howardb]

How about greying it out like in CM or giving it a really bad firing resolution? Removing Borg spotting will certainly push the realism several notches forward.

[Brent Pollock]

That is good news, considering that one of the screenshots seems to show an 88 mm PaK with its wheels off so it was easier to dig-in. Would've been a shame to depict that but then have everyone see it in a micro-second.

Do the Germans get smokeless ammo in TOW (I've heard this bandied about by JasonC or John Kettler or somesuch knowledgeable person on the CM boards)?

[ July 30, 2006, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Brent Pollock ]

[RMC]

Originally posted by Brent Pollock:

That is good news, considering that one of the screenshots seems to show an 88 mm PaK with its wheels off so it was easier to dig-in.

LOL. To me it looks like it got pounded til the wheels fell off.

[Brent Pollock]

[squint...squint harder] Hmmm...I think you are quite correct. I originally eyeballed it quickly and mistook the darkened blast area for a dug pit...and the whells looked so perfectly placed, too...sigh...

Originally posted by RMC:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brent Pollock:

That is good news, considering that one of the screenshots seems to show an 88 mm PaK with its wheels off so it was easier to dig-in.

LOL. To me it looks like it got pounded til the wheels fell off. </font>

[Megakill]

LOS is very realistic. For example some tanks have side view wholes, some not, etc.

[Zalgiris 1410]

Originally posted by Moon:

From what I have seen units spot individually. You can have one unit engaging another while a unit close to it but without LOS is not going to engage the target.

Of course the big equalizer is the player himself, who always has overview of the entire battlefield, so once one of your units sees something, you, as the player, can react, regardless if your other units spotted it or not. This is one fundamental problem that pretty much every wargame shares I guess.

Thanks for that Martin, that takes care of the Borg spotting issues as much as a computer game can I guess, however that doesn't cover how field communication between units is going to work except for how I'm imagining it to take place in CM etc.

What I mean is that disregarding the abstracted ways in which the FOOs and vehicles that have radios communicate one had to really suspend a sense of reality somewhat in order to accept the way field intelligence communication with borg spotting occurred. While as you say the game players have omnipitant overviews of the battlefield situation far way above and beyond that which would really occur which effectively carries over some borg spotting glitches into ToW, however I'm still interested as to wheither say telephone lines & radio nets are actually going to be in ToW and the ways inwhich they might effect play if they are represented.

I am thinking of ways in which the cutting of phone lines might create a situation in which a unit or group of units may become lost and 'fall out of communication' and fade to some statis like how surrenderring units do in CMx1. I am hoping that the effects of heavy bombardments might also be more accurately represented in ToW than in other games in terms of a slowing down or silencing of field communication. I am also still interested in how escorting infantry might actually be able to both locate and point out mines, ditches and obsticles to the AFVs that they are assigned to or tanks that they are riding on and assist them in ways that they used to, of cause training and experience could be a funtioning veriable to this.

How about having runners that can pass on information to other units or groups of units about the enemy situation, firing positions, MG nets and gun emplacements. It would of cause have to be in a correctly handled fasion, say with runners only being able to run to & from HQ units and down & back to their organic units and attached assets etc, especially say look outs and special weapons. It would create a more realistic feel to ToW and allow for some really interesting game play such as how knocking off runners is going to effect things, IMHO.

In short I would like to see a realistic functioning signals net in ToW, or will I have to continue to surrealistly imagine one! So I ask am I gonna get my fix or should I just start wishing for or howling at the Moon? :eek:

[ July 31, 2006, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: Zalgiris 1410 ]

[Moon]

It will be the latter I'm afraid. TOW does not attempt to simulate C&C. And as you can see from what we did in CM (a very simplified system), they're not to blame. Even in a turn-based game like CM it's difficult to achieve a realistc simulation of what you describe, and in TOW it would be an overwhelming task. Even though the pace of TOW is much slower than other RTS I played (and hated), there is only so much you can do and digest in a real-time environment.

Martin

PS. Histwar: Les Grognards simulates C&C with runners (but no radio of course) just like you describe at the highest difficulty setting!

[Zalgiris 1410]

Thanks for your response Martin, I thought as much. I'm not disapointed. I think that all that would very hard to simulate and possibly not necessarily the best thing to have to deal with in a war game. OTOH may be, it'd all be interesting for a training or historical simulation.

So ToW is sounding mostly like an ultra CM/CC imporvement given these similar aspects which I've enjoyed so much. Fortunately my imagination is well flexible enough to continue handling this stuff! :cool: