Battle for Russia mods ready for download at cmmods.com

[Kuniworth]

Feel free to download it.

This is the eastern front 1941-45; the best military machine on earth unleashed on the world's greatest army. Corps sized units and weekly turns.

This scenario is dedicated to the unbreakable russian people.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Man hardly any posts about this?

Played vs. AI at expert +0, just to get a feel for

how balanced the combat is without exp bonuses

mucking up the works. Won in August '42. Comments:

1. No paratroopers, at least none which can actually

paratroop. I can see the rationale here maybe-both

sides soured on drops after some bloody campaigns

(Crete for the Germans, but later in the war for the

Russians who IIRC did have a pretty extensive lineup

of paratroopers). Perhaps it is a play balance issue.

2. I know if Arthur Harris were alive today he

would be having wet dreams about the oodles of

raids the RAF runs in this scenario. True they

are mostly pinpricks, but ~10 raids per week in

1941?!? Can the German player slow them down by

stationing a fighter in some predetermined hex?

[My feeble grasp of scripts seems to indicate you

could]

3. Supply for the Germans. Most of my HQs were

happily running around with 10 supply, a level

never reached in the main scenario.

4. More a Hubert/Blashy question: I thought that

cutting off units and destroying them at supply 0

would mean the enemy would have to pay full price

for a replacement AND the hard build limits for

that unit would drop by one? That is the impression

Blashy gave me.

Overall tho a very worthy effort Kuni. What was

interesting is that I never was sure if the

Russians were reeling or had some lurking reserves

to spring on me just when I got overconfident.

Only towards the end when I had level 3 tanks with

oodles of Elite troops did I know Russia was toast.

It certainly is more playable than Grigsby's

effort or Schwerpunkt's (better interface and less

micromanagement).

------------

AI notes for anyone who wants to script them:

Usual kinds of things-doesn't take advantage of

terrain bonuses, most new troops were dropped into

the Moscow sector, leaving the south open to one

of my rampages, doesn't buy tech, buys too many

tanks in the beginning (many of his tanks I must

have killed at least half a dozen times).

[Retributar]

John DiFool the 2nd ... i am with you on your comment's, ... i agree!.

The game for me has a different over-all feel as well as play's a little differently,...such as concentrating on one front instead of the whole European-African theatre'!.

All in all,... a welcome 'MOD' addition to the line-up!.

[Blashy]

Nice work Kuniworth. The map looks fantastic.

John, if you cut off at unit at 0 supply, it is gone FOREVER! Wiped out or POWs.

1-4 supply = buy back at full price.

5 and higher = buy back at 60%.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by John DiFool the 2nd:

Man hardly any posts about this?

Played vs. AI at expert +0, just to get a feel for

how balanced the combat is without exp bonuses

mucking up the works. Won in August '42.

Well this is a human vs human scenario so far so I'm not surprised you won. Version 1.1 fixes a lot of things like weather, research etc.

1. No paratroopers, at least none which can actually

paratroop. I can see the rationale here maybe-both

sides soured on drops after some bloody campaigns

(Crete for the Germans, but later in the war for the

Russians who IIRC did have a pretty extensive lineup

of paratroopers). Perhaps it is a play balance issue.

No actually its an historical issue. The Red Army starts with all it's Airborne Corps but they were only used in an infantry role until destroyed in autumn 1941. After that the airborne force went through a number of reorganisation and never played a substantial role on the eastern front. That's why I left them out. Also this is a corps-sized scenario and airborne corps consisted of battallion-size units, so bringing them in as paratroopes would give them influence on the battle out of their proportion.

2. I know if Arthur Harris were alive today he

would be having wet dreams about the oodles of

raids the RAF runs in this scenario. True they

are mostly pinpricks, but ~10 raids per week in

1941?!? Can the German player slow them down by

stationing a fighter in some predetermined hex?

[My feeble grasp of scripts seems to indicate you

could]

Unfortunately that is not possible, maybe if I use partisan-events instead of supply events but then the axis player just had to place a corps on every city to avoid them beeing bombed. Another solution is to make the small raids start later on in 1942 but I can't see the benefit of that either really as I would either have to script all small raids in 1941 or just not include them.

3. Supply for the Germans. Most of my HQs were

happily running around with 10 supply, a level

never reached in the main scenario.

Yes good you mentioned it. Will fix this and set it at 50%.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Thanks Kuni. At Expert +1 many players would likely

have a good go of it, considering the huge number

of Russian units that need to be killed to allow the

Wehrmacht to charge forward and achieve the

historical line by December '41, and esp. now that

you lowered the supply level. Still would like

someone to tweak the AI (Timskorn? ND?).

One other thing I meant to mention: at start the

incomes are about 470 German, 750 Russian. By

1942 Germany was getting close to 900 MPP. I didn't

go that far on the Russian side but do they have

events for increased MPP production? If not the

Germans will simply outproduce them.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by John DiFool the 2nd:

One other thing I meant to mention: at start the

incomes are about 470 German, 750 Russian. By

1942 Germany was getting close to 900 MPP. I didn't

go that far on the Russian side but do they have

events for increased MPP production? If not the

Germans will simply outproduce them.

Thanks again John for the input.

Russia have events for both Ural industry as well as Russian convoys(including Caspian sea route) that triggers the resources on the far right side that gives them 240 MMP extra by mid 1942. Germany starts at with around 400, Russia the double, however Russia can increase the industrial capability with 25% for each step of prodution tech while Italy and Germany only got a 10% increase. To add to this they can build armies for 150 MMP while axis buys their inf corps for 300.

So Russia is not without a chance. Adding the new lowered supply to 5 on russian occupied cities(which also reduce MMP income) and better weather(I used the standard weather SC2 weather data for northern Europe for 1.0 and it sucked) the axis will have a hard time advancing.

My fear is a little bit that Russia already are a bit too strong. They have more HQ:s and if they mass their forces and go aggressivly(as they did historically in 1941) I can see axis having real problem replacing their losses. But I guess it will need more testing, you may very well be right.

What Im planning to do right now for 1.1 is a cap on research and fewer chits allowed in each cathegory, and weather in late fall will aboslutely have no clear turns at all. Either it's mud or snow. Early spring will have much more mud too.

I wonder if it's possible to change the effects of seasons?

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Yeah I noticed the weather-Clear in early Dec. '41!

Good question on the seasonal changes-EVERYTHING

should move at a maximum of 1 in mud IMHO. I hope

Hubert puts a lot of his variables into config files

eventually, if this doesn't make cheating easier.

C'mon someone else must have thoughts about this

scenario!

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Originally posted by Blashy:

Nice work Kuniworth. The map looks fantastic.

John, if you cut off at unit at 0 supply, it is gone FOREVER! Wiped out or POWs.

1-4 supply = buy back at full price.

5 and higher = buy back at 60%.

Is this strictly about the NAMES, or does the hard

limit drop as well? Last night I tested this by

deliberately putting Russian armored units into

0 supply situations (in Kuni's map), letting the

Germans kill them, and seeing the results in the

buy menu. I still could have a maximum of 13

Russian tanks (Kuni's default limit) even if

several (at least 4) died at 0 supply.

[Kuniworth]

Yes weather is totally wrong in sc2 files.

I tell you what John Di Fool, what about we play a tcp/ip game or PBEM as soon as Ive updated the scenario?

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Would have to be PBEM, as I usually can't commit to

a TCPIP game. Have you had testers play to the end

date, which likely with 104 turns per game year

would take a few eternities in real time?

TFA in any event-ready when you are-I'll take the

Russkies and let you rampage on my carcass for

awhile.

Re my last comment: if you cannot reduce the hard

limits then you are probably better off killing

Russian units ASAP than you are letting them linger

and get in the way of your supply routes, the 40%

price reduction be damned.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

I wanted to discuss some issues which have come up

in my game with Kuni, which is currently in early

Sept. Other people HAVE played this, vs. the hapless

AI at least, right? :cool:

1. More research categories and/or units. A

number of the techs are greyed out, which in

several cases makes sense. A few could be

interesting tho, with the caveat that Kuni I think

would argue that the below are too small for the

scale he is using:

A. How much can you make the upgrade cost for

infantry to become motorized, Kuni? If the cost

to upgrade one point of motorization was c. 100%

of the cost of the unit, would that be balanced?

If not would a Panzergrenadier unit be makeable,

taking a slot of a disallowed unit?

B. Artillery. Again I can see the absence here

(arty being attached to the Corps/Army in question

in an abstract way), but might prove interesting.

C. I already discussed paratroopers, but the fact

is both sides at least considered the idea before

discarding it. I know Russo-Turkish War has them

(albeit on a division scale). Just crank the

price up to the point that buying one or two would

be a questionable tho defensible decision.

2. Supply. He reverted to the 5 max city level for

the Axis for our game, and so far it is proving

pretty accurate-he is lagging a bit behind the

historical pace, tho that is likely because I for

the most part didn't stand and fight too much

during the first two months, unlike the real Russian

army.

3. Partisans. My recollection was that the Pripet

marshes were a breeding ground for the buggers,

but so far I've had only one pop up in Russia,

that near Minsk. It may be that there's scripts

calling for increasing numbers of them as the game

goes on tho (haven't checked). He does have city

events if the city is unoccupied tho.

All in all Kuni I am greatly enjoying our game-I

just hope to see some other AARs by other people

and comments by same.

[Blashy]

No artillery? Hmmm, seems to be the right scale for it no?

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by John DiFool the 2nd:

A. How much can you make the upgrade cost for

infantry to become motorized, Kuni? If the cost

to upgrade one point of motorization was c. 100%

of the cost of the unit, would that be balanced?

If not would a Panzergrenadier unit be makeable,

taking a slot of a disallowed unit?

Unfortunately that is not possible if you mean what the upgrades would cost. I wrote to Hubert about it as at it stands now the upgrade cost is related to the unit cost. So either you make all units expensive as hell or you have all units motorized.

B. Artillery. Again I can see the absence here

(arty being attached to the Corps/Army in question

in an abstract way), but might prove interesting.

It might. I can't really see it fit in here as you say but it maybe be good for knocking down entrenchment.

C. I already discussed paratroopers, but the fact

is both sides at least considered the idea before

discarding it. I know Russo-Turkish War has them

(albeit on a division scale). Just crank the

price up to the point that buying one or two would

be a questionable tho defensible decision.

That would in that case be units with low combat values as we are talking about divisions here.

2. Supply. He reverted to the 5 max city level for

the Axis for our game, and so far it is proving

pretty accurate-he is lagging a bit behind the

historical pace, tho that is likely because I for

the most part didn't stand and fight too much

during the first two months, unlike the real Russian army.

Supply is hell I tell you. In our game most of my panzers are 4-5 star units which headcrack anything but whats keeping them down is supply. In fact it's really ridiclous, maybe the supply level gotta change and to compensate that lower available HQ-attachment of units. After all it was the Red Army not mainly supply that halted the german advance.

3. Partisans. My recollection was that the Pripet

marshes were a breeding ground for the buggers,

but so far I've had only one pop up in Russia,

that near Minsk. It may be that there's scripts

calling for increasing numbers of them as the game

goes on tho (haven't checked). He does have city

events if the city is unoccupied tho.

Yes we've seen very little of them so far. THey reduce some cities here and there and that is a bit annoying. In Yugoslavia they are extremly active keeping lots of forces occupied.

Infact partisans are a problem. How to model them? I'm using like 5-6 corps to chase them down in our game, units that historically is to big to fight partisans and which fought at the front. So you have a situation where like 20% of my OOB is chasing partisans. That is not realistic. And if partisan units are allowed to sprung forward in every swamp or mountain tile they will soon be the biggest army around.

So I think it's wise to have them appear at a few places where they were immensly strong and as the rest have them as supply events for the cities. Maybe they should be more active, or maybe I should add more supply events for each passing year so they reduce more city supply for each passing year?

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Kuni I disagree about the Red Army slowing down the

Germans in late '41. From what I gather from

various sources the Jerries (A) had pretty much

shot their logistical wad by late August, and had

to scrounge to supply the following offensives,

which were more limited than at the beginning,

and ( were pretty much at the end of their rope

logistically at the end of the Moscow campaign.

It was this crappy level of supply (and General

Winter, natch) which made the following Russian

counteroffensive so initially devastating (tho the

Russians also then had their own logistical

limitations come into play). It's a minor miracle

that the Germans came within sight of the Kremlin

spires to begin with.

Perhaps have a low-cost garrison unit (aka divisions,

with combat values too low to take on corps/armies)

to take on partisans?

Partisans do do (heh) one good thing: training for

your troops. When I did my test game vs. the AI

I got the Italians to become pretty crack units,

with 1-3 levels of elites.

You didn't comment on my motorized infantry unit

idea-weren't the shock armies motorized? Just

a few corps-sized units of this type able to keep

up with the tanks.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by John DiFool the 2nd:

Kuni I disagree about the Red Army slowing down the

Germans in late '41. From what I gather from

various sources the Jerries (A) had pretty much

shot their logistical wad by late August, and had

to scrounge to supply the following offensives,

which were more limited than at the beginning,

and ( were pretty much at the end of their rope

logistically at the end of the Moscow campaign.

It was this crappy level of supply (and General

Winter, natch) which made the following Russian

counteroffensive so initially devastating (tho the

Russians also then had their own logistical

limitations come into play). It's a minor miracle

that the Germans came within sight of the Kremlin

spires to begin with.

Yes logistics were a big problem for the germans. However I personally tend to strongly agree with east front expert David Glantz's conclusion that the Red Army's stiff resistance was the main factor in slowing the germans. After all what like 5 million men in dead or captured in 1941 would seriously have taken it's toll on both german advance and do great losses to them. Glantz states that the eastern campaign is not handle very well through history. In the west german sources have been the source for historic descriptions tending to focus too much on german "bad luck" eg terrain, logistics, winter etc. While in the east the russian failures have been played down in favor of describing the german success due to surprise and consequently avoiding all red army failures.

Perhaps have a low-cost garrison unit (aka divisions,

with combat values too low to take on corps/armies)

to take on partisans?

Yes I'm thinking the same. Problem is that there are no slots for it. Maybe if one used the Artillery/Rocket slot and converted it into einsatz/anti partisan groups with very low attack and defense values?

Partisans do do (heh) one good thing: training for

your troops. When I did my test game vs. the AI

I got the Italians to become pretty crack units,

with 1-3 levels of elites. Yes I know that is a possible exploit if too many partisans arrive.

You didn't comment on my motorized infantry unit

idea-weren't the shock armies motorized? Just

a few corps-sized units of this type able to keep

up with the tanks.

Yes but what slots too use? I agree but if I allow motorizations every unit in the game will be motorized in no time and what's the realism in that. If I use a new type of unit that would have to be rockets, paratroopers or engineers. With engineers and paratroopes come special abilities which I can't turn off, that would either mean that the Shock Armies could paratroop or build fortifications which is quite stupid. So the game is putting some limits on what is possible here unfortunately.

[Kuniworth]

Here is a letter I posted to John;

>seeing your last turn finally convinced me that this scenario need serious

>adjustment. Without hardly any counterattacks on your part the axis forces

>are already lacking way behind. And it's all due to the supply, german

>forces can't move and with just 3 HQ:s at supply 5 they can't stand up to

>the russians supply 10, 5 HQ:s and greater production. Now with the mud

>coming and ambushing tanks, Germany will fall 2-3 years earlier than

>historically. And considering the exceptionally terrific blows axis struck

>in the first 2 turns in our game it all feels very weird.

>

>In 1941 the soviet counteroffensives stalled the blitzkrieg, particulary

>the attacks around Smolensk halted the germans for 2 months on central

>sector. So far in this game we have not seen anything of that(you wisely

>just build up) but still the wehrmacht can't move. I think the MMP

>prodution is ok, with Russia getting cheaper infantry and extra production

>tech chits to gear up quickly. But in this scenario maybe that is too much.

>

>Anyway as I see it something needs to be done about this, some suggestions;

>

>- Leave as is but introduce all the german Army HQ:s(around 13-14 of

>them). THat would mean also increase the number of soviet Front HQ:s to

>the same amount. And maybe then reduce number of attachments from 20 to

>like 5. Then supply could stay the same.

>

>- Supply 6 in cities(makes HQ:s supply level at 10, but with new weather

>file and only 3 Hq:s that may work.

>

>- Or one could try lowering Soviet prodution in 1941 or increase cost of

>infantry. And why not combine that with making a soviet army have stronger

>combat values than an german corps?

>

>Different suggestions.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Heh with two threads I wasn't sure which one to reply

to! You'll see my thoughts in the main SC2 forum.