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Good catch ebitt. Nevada did take part in two bombardment engagements and served 10 months in the Atlantic. Don't know how you want to count her Blashy:

Battleship USS Nevada – Lead ship of her class (the Oklahoma was in her class), commissioned in 1916, serving in the Pacific until arriving in the Atlantic in June 1943 for major overhauls and retrofitting. This was completed in April 1944, and she set sail for Normandy. After pounding Cherbourg, she helped soften up southern France for Anvil/Dragoon and then went back to the Pacific in February 1945.

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Here's the scoop on the USA Cruisers

Augusta – Northampton class heavy cruiser commissioned Jan 1931, assigned to the Asiatic fleet operating off China and the Philippines. Sent to California on December 1940 for a major overhaul and refit. Nearly completely rebuilt and rearmed with a fresh deck of paint, she sailed for Rhode Island in May 1941. She was President Roosevelt’s personal “flagship” and was again retrofitted with new radar and anti-aircraft guns (to protect the President) through August 1941. From August to December, the Augusta was either in dock or acting as FDR’s personal “yacht”. In March 1942, she joined a task force for her first “real job”, and promptly got lambasted by storms at sea. The result was two months in port for repairs! (Can’t b*tch about the damage to ships at sea from storm script! Haha.) She made one or two passes along the coastline before putting into port for yet another overhaul and refit. On October 1942, she was no longer a “dog and pony show” and was sent to assist with Operation Torch. Augusta was playing with the big boys now. She contributed heavily to Torch, Morocco, Normandy, Operation Dragoon/Anvil and had a distinguished service record in the Atlantic. In 1945 she was re-assigned to… President Truman. She was taken out of duty in 1946 and sold for scrap in 1959.

Tuscaloosa – New Orleans class heavy cruiser commissioned Aug ’34 and sent to the Pacific. In August 1939, she went to the Atlantic to help ferry the President around on goodwill tours of South America. In December 1939, she was escorting a German cruise ship trying to return home from tourism fun in the Caribbean. The Royal Navy’s HMS Hyperion destroyer intercepted them and a standoff ensued, with the Hyperion firing shots across the cruise ships bow. The Germans scuttled their ship and all 570 passengers were rescued by the Tuscaloosa – for safe passage back to America. The next year saw absolutely no action while patrolling for subs in the Caribbean. In May 1941, she briefly set sail to find the Bismark, but returned back to the boring sub hunt until Pearl Harbor. The Tuscaloosa hunted in the waters around England until joining in for Torch, operations off Norway with the CV Ranger, and later Normandy, Anvil/Dragoon until Iwo Jima and the Pacific came calling in 1945.

Quincy – New Orleans heavy cruiser commissioned June ’36 assigned to the Gulf of Mexico during the Spanish American War and then sent to the Pacific. In 1939, she was assigned to the Atlantic and made some north Atlantic Neutrality Patrols before docking in December 1939. An overhaul/retrofit was completed May 4, 1940. After some more Icelandic patrols, and another refit from March – May 1942, the Quincy was sent to the Pacific. On August 9, 1942 during the Guadacanal campaign, she was ambushed and attacked by the Imperial Japanese Navy. She sustained numerous direct hits, and sank quickly – 370 sailors lost.

Vincennes - New Orleans heavy cruiser commissioned Feb ’37, assigned to the Pacific. Sent to the eastern seaboard for a major overhaul and refit in April 1939. In Sept ’39, she began Neutrality Patrols, lasting for one year before yet another overhaul. In Jan’ 41, her repairs completed, she patrolled South America and South Africa. While Pearl Harbor was being bombed, the Vincennes was nearly ripped to shreds by storms off Cape Town, South Africa. The Vincennes sailed for the eastern USA for repairs, minor refitting, and reassignment to the Pacific theater, joining Task Force 16 (CV Enterprise) . On August 9, 1942, the Vincennes was hit by torpedoes and became a sitting duck for the IJN. The crew was able to safely abandon ship as they watched her join the Quincy and the Astoria all at the bottom of Ironbottom Sound off Savo Island, Guadacanal.

Wichita – The only Wichita class cruiser, commissioned Feb ’39. Conducted Neutrality Patrols and convoy duty in the Caribbean and South America until Pearl Harbor. She joined the Wasp and Washington in Iceland patrols in Jan ’42. In Nov ’42, the Wichita and Tuscaloosa squared off with the Vichy French navy. 3 Vichy sub torpedoes passed dangerously close to the Wichita while she was engaged with the Vichy capital ships and shore batteries around Casablanca. After minor repairs and refitting, she sailed for the Pacific and the Aleutian Islands. After a lengthy Pacific campaign, the Wichita became a part of the US occupational force in Japan. She was decommissioned in 1947 and sold for scrap in ’59.

- 2 cruisers with extensive Atlantic action (Augusta/Tuscaloosa), 2 with only neutrality patrol (Quincy/Vincennes), and 1 with patrol/convoy duty and only with minor action (Wichita). If it was me, I would only count 2 cruisers for your mod if you are halving.

- I would definitely count the Augusta in either the starting OOB reduced str (3?), or put her in the cue for Oct '42 at full strength.

- I’d add the Tuscaloosa as well, probably half strength but in the starting force pool.

[ July 18, 2006, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Capt Andrew ]

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After all this great information this is what I intend to go with.

BBs, 1 arriving in Dec 41 and another arriving at 5 STR in March 44 (It was ready to sail in April of 44 after a refit so the player can choose to do it or not). 1 already arrives in March 41

CAs have the Tuscalosa at game start and Augusta arriving in March 42.

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Historical start of Urals being rebuilt.

The Urals industry was rebuilt in late summer of 1941, in the default campaign this usually is triggered around late Dec 41.

Now it starts in late Summer of 41, failsafe date being Sept 10 (end of Summer being Sept 20).

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Originally posted by Blashy:

Historical start of Urals being rebuilt.

The Urals industry was rebuilt in late summer of 1941, in the default campaign this usually is triggered around late Dec 41.

Now it starts in late Summer of 41, failsafe date being Sept 10 (end of Summer being Sept 20).

What are you aiming at here? Start of rebuildment or when it reaches full production?
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Since three ships that are used in the standard full length campaign weren’t mentioned in my previous postings, here they are (followed by a summary of differences between Hubert’s standard campaign and Blashy’s historical mod):

---------------------------

Massachusetts (BB-59): Commissioned May 12, 1942. This battleship is already in the production cue and the date that Hubert has it arriving is correct. October ’42, she sailed to assist with the invasion of North Africa, squaring off against the Vichy French battleship Jean Bart. She heavily damaged the Jean Bart, silencing their guns, before turning to face some of the French destroyers, sinking two, then went to shelling the French shore batteries. Needless to say, the USA’s first European naval battle went very well for the Massachusetts. So well, that they shipped her to the Pacific the next month. Her total time in the Atlantic, including training time? Only six months.

Brooklyn (CL-40): Lead ship of her light cruiser class, commissioned Sept 30, 1937. Hubert has the Brooklyn in the production cue arriving March 3, 1942. The Brooklyn was stationed on the west coast until March 1941, when she took part in the South America goodwill tour. After this and until October 1942, the Brooklyn took part in Neutrality Patrols and convoy escort duties to Iceland and the UK. Her action during the war years consisted in shore bombardment of North Africa, invasion of Sicily, Anzio, and Anvil/Dragoon (southern France). She underwent an extensive overhaul in May 1945, and later sold to Chile in January 1951.

Philadelphia (CL-41): Brooklyn class light cruiser, commissioned Sept 27, 1937. Hubert has her as an available cruiser for purchase for the USA. She arrived in the Atlantic on June 18, 1942 for sub hunting duties off Newfoundland and Iceland. Her wartime action included North Africa, some skirmishes with Vichy French submarines, Sicily/Palermo, Anzio, and clearing a smooth path for the 45th Division (Thunderbirds) landing in southern France. Overhauled in 45, she served until 1951 when she was sold to Brazil (renamed Barroso).

------------------------------

So after all that, OOB for USA from Hubert:

TOTAL OOB: 2 BB, 2 Cruisers

STARTING UNITS: None.

PRODUCTION CUE: 2 BB, 2 Cruisers

BB New York: March 7, 1941 BB Massachusetts: May 12, 1942

CA Tuscaloosa: August 1, 1941 CL Brooklyn: March 3, 1942

CARRIERS: None (only the Ranger in the available unit pool)

I think Hubert is pretty doggone close if you are using Blashy’s OOB “formula” and historical choice of units! Staying historical, for USA’s forces, I would recommend only a slight modification Blashy:

- CA Tuscaloosa: HC has her coming in ’41. She was there all along and fairly active. I would add her to the starting pool, but only at half strength to represent all the refitting and overhauling performed on these ships from ’39 through ‘42.

- CL Brooklyn: She was only a light cruiser, and since nearly every cruiser represented in the campaign is a heavy cruiser, I wouldn’t use her. Take her out of the production cue and put her in the available units pool.

- CA Augusta: Add her to the production cue, but because she was merely a “show boat” for her first years, I wouldn’t have her arrive until December 7, 1941 (when she stopped being FDR’s water taxi). Since delaying her until this date, I would bring her in at full strength.

- BB Massachusetts: Like the Washington and several other dreadnaughts famous for their Pacific feats and only six months in the Atlantic theater, I would take her out of the production cue (May 12, 1941) and add her to the available units pool.

- BB New York: She’s in the production cue for March 7, 1941. I’d leave her there.

- BB Texas: I would substitute her for the Massachusetts, with an early June 1941 arrival date in the production cue (half strength for the ‘old girl/steamship dreadnaught).

- BB Arkansas: Add her to the USA production cue with a half strength June 1941 arrival date.

- CV Wasp: Add her to the USA production cue, arriving in October 1940 at half strength or May 1941 at full strength. (Judgment call)

Summary:

------------------------

TOTAL OOB: 3 BB (1 full str, 2 half strength), 2 CA (1 full, 1 half), 1 CV (half str)

STARTING FORCE: CA Tuscaloosa (half strength)

PRODUCTION CUE: 3 BB, 1 CA, 1 CV

BB New York: March 7, 1941

BB Texas: June 1, 1941 (1/2 str)

BB Arkansas: June 1, 1941 (1/2 str)

CA Augusta: December 7, 1941

CV Wasp: Oct ‘40/ May ‘41

Suggested net change to Huberts OOB: Added a BB, swapped a BB, swapped a Cruiser, fixed Tuscaloosa’s date of arrival, and added a Carrier. The benefits of bringing the USA naval units in at half strength are not to say that these ships were "inferior" - it just puts a more historical spin to the mod, allowing the USA player the joy of refitting and overhauling the ships the same way the USA did leading up to WW2.

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Originally posted by Kuniworth:

Then we are about using the same levels. In Battle of Russia it starts in september and full scale mid 1942 which at least was historically when they reached full production.

Yep, we're in line on that for sure. We'll I guess we both like to stay historical ;) .
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I need help with Russia. Right now it is too weak, the removal of some Siberian troops to a more historical size does not help it.

My problem is the massive reserves of MEN the Russians had that they "threw" at the Germans, those were not part of Siberian troops and they had those pretty much at the onset of war, these are the people that basically held stalingrad while the Soviets build tons of hardware to counter attack.

Right now those troops are missing and I don't have much of an idea what would it consist of and when they would be available (production queue).

Any help would be great.

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I think I've found the problem why the Russians can't build any reserves in the default campaign and my mod.

They are missing tanks and AF.

When Barbarossa started they had 3 times more tanks then Germany and twice as many AFs.

Right now the way it is set up the Russians have 3 times LESS AFs (Germany has 3, Soviets 1) and 1 tank to start while Germany starts with 2 , so 2 times LESS.

In actually Soviets should have 6 AFs and 6 tanks. I don't see how any player can purchase 5 AFs and 5 tanks to be available ON June 1941.

Although IMHO Germany shoudl only start with 2 AFs, so that would be 4 AFs for the Soviets and they were not quite there yet in terms of technology so I would remove the AdvAir chit.

You can't give all those units to the player as half were on the east and the rest were in the front and got destroyed quite fast, the planes were also of low quality, irrelevant to the times.

[ July 20, 2006, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Blashy ]

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Another issue is Russian production, it seems EXTREMELY underepresented in the default scenario.

You look at Russian vs. German production and no way you can achieve these results with Russia as is.

Tanks / Self propelled guns:

1941 USSR: ~6500 Germany: ~5000

1942 USSR: ~24000 Germany ~9000

1943 USSR: ~24000 Germany ~20000

Aircraft:

1941 Russia: 15000 Germany 12000

1942 Russia: 25000 Germany 15000

1943 Russia: 35000 Germany 25000

Oil production was over 4 to 1 in favor of Russia throughout the war.

I'm thinking more and more that oil wells are a big key to everything, increase their value and it could fix alot of the issue with regards to production for USA and Russia. The only other oil wells in the game are Iraq and Romania.

Could it be that simple?

... I feel like a blogger.

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Good grief, tackling Russia is going to be a mess from a historical OOB number standpoint. I can only think of one way to address the sheer number of infantry, and they are uninformed suggestions or talking points only:

- Cap IW tech to 1 (they weren't that effective without tanks, and would help represent the 'human waves' that Russia threw against Germany)

- Reduce soft attack by 1 for corps

- Reduce production build delay by XXX (Can't recall what default is, but shorten it slightly)

I think it's important to focus on the 1939 starting statistics -- what was there and what was already being built. With naval unit costs and the cut in MPP's from SC1, it's understandable that you end up having to "help" by putting capital ships in the starting prodution cue. I'd just be cautious about using later numbers unless its historically something important (arrival of Bismark, etc). But I am hesitant to say that Russia needs much if any help in the infantry production cue. Complicating matters, is the Winter War with Finland...and representing the losses sustained during '39 and '40 there without affecting the SC2 gameplay aspect.

I like using your tech script modifications for Russia, putting limits on infantry upgrades, while possibly reducing the cost of tank research to 100. While it's true the Russians had a ton of planes for Barbarossa, I seem to recall that most were bi-planes and/or totally obsolete. It wasn't until later models of the IL-Sturmovik that Russian air was even a factor. But that's just off the top of my head, I could be wrong. Regardless, that is something that can be handled in-game by the player.

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Regarding the Winter War in '39 and '40 - SC2 doesn't address this except for the Soviet/Finland border scripts, but here are the human losses for just the Soviets:

SOURCE

Soviet losses in the Winter War against Finland 1939-1940

The below tables include only the irrevocerable losses, apart from these one must consider the 264,908 who were wounded.

Type | Killed in action | Died in hospital | Missing in action | Total

Commanders 6,000 802 1,010 7,812

NCOs 9,611 1,436 2,998 14,045

Men 54,215 12,185 33,829 100,227

Rank not known 1,388 1,869 1,534 4,791

Total 71,214 16,292 39,369 126,875

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Blashy good mod, have played it up to Sept. 1944, these are not negatives but observations, I liked the way the russians played up to a point, I was hoping they would back up more instead of trying to hammer it out with superior german forces which cost them dearly, but towards the end the AI russians played very well. On the American end of the AI, I noticed a lot more tank forces which you mentioned you would do, your new scripts and mod may have nothing to do with this but 4 american tank units sat in St. Johns Newfoundland for almost a year doing nothing, maybe because there was no room in England and that's why they sat there, could you have the AI conquer Ireland for much needed space for units or is that a nono. Also when the allies launch D-day it should be an all out invasion with every unit landing as close together as possible or the invasion is always doomed, again this might be Hubert's problem and there is nothing you can do about it, no american combat units outside of airpower went to North Africa which might be a good thing. I realize the AI cannot micro-manage all situations that arise but there are some glaring omissions that arise and you are not aware of them unless someone playing notices them and I believe you talented programers can correct, if you feel I should not bring these things up I won't do it again, but I feel you are dedicated to this game and would like to know how battles are turning out

Willy

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Thanks william, glad you liked it.

Unfortunatly all that you mention is stuff that only Hubert can fix.

The Russians are being worked on, there is a problem with lack of build up troops according to history and it was seriously outproducing the Axis even by the end of 1941.

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Hi Canuck_para. I would agree with you but the Germans are also not receiving more subs, they have 57 at the start of the war, they have 3 in this game.

So UK has plenty of ships to hunt them down. Also do not foget that France has a few more ships to start so if a few are free french, that should help even more so.

Oh and soon if nothing is changed, Allies will find hunting subs easier along the convoy lanes ;) .

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Hey Blashy. You are right. I guess the solution would be to lower the CA price to reflect the cheap corvettes. This would prevent the bleeding off of the Brit Navy if a few sub hunts go bad. Most players hide until the French are gone. I would like to see a destroyer type unit but thawt is in Hubert's hand. I enjoy your mod. I am going to have a go at it now. If you want a PBEM game let me know. I don't have all the gamey moves figured out but I could be interesting as the Allies.

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Ok the latest version has been updated.

I will NOT thinker with any of it until the next official patch.

I want this latest version to be played thouroughly and commented on by players.

The last changes are the following:

53- Added Desert Dave's Crete supply effect script.

; Crete Limits Allied Supply in Egypt

{

#NAME= Crete Effect

#POPUP= Crete Forces Interdict Allied Supply to Egypt

#FLAG= 1

#TYPE= 2

#COUNTRY_ID= 5

#TRIGGER= 5

#SEASON_FLAG= 0

#DATE= 1940/01/01

#SOURCE_POSITION= 101,29 [14]

#SOURCE_POSITION= 101,30 [14]

#DESTINATION_RESOURCE= 109,32 [1,2]

#DESTINATION_RESOURCE= 108,32 [1,2]

#DESTINATION_RESOURCE= 99,31 [1,3]

#DESTINATION_RESOURCE= 98,31 [1,3]

#DESTINATION_RESOURCE= 92,35 [1,3]

}

________________________________

; Britain Assumes Control of Crete

{

#NAME= Britain Takes Control of Crete

#POPUP= Britain Takes Control of Crete

#FLAG= 1

#TYPE= 0

#COUNTRY_ID= 20

#TRANSFER_ID= 1

#SURRENDERED_TO= 1

#TRIGGER= 100

#MAP_POSITION= 99,29

#MAP_POSITION= 100,30

#MAP_POSITION= 100,29

#MAP_POSITION= 101,29

#MAP_POSITION= 101,30

#MAP_POSITION= 101,28

#MAP_POSITION= 102,29

#MAP_POSITION= 102,30

#MAP_POSITION= 103,29

#MAP_POSITION= 103,30

#MAP_POSITION= 104,30

}

54- I've increased the MPP resource value of Oil Wells from 3 to 5.

Russian / US industries will hopefully be represented more appropiratly, Russia alone outproduce Germany 4 to 1 in oil production and was vital in why they could have so many motorized troops operational, so the extra mpps you get from these wells represent the ability to have more motorized troops. It will also make oil wells of more strategic importance.

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Right now those troops are missing and I don't have much of an idea what would it consist of and when they would be available (production queue).

Any help would be great.

make them minor units. Give USSR a minor nation (Afganistan) with a huge number of minor corps that he can purchase.

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