Blashy's MOD, yep I gave it a go.

[Blashy]

The thing is Scook, the other navies have the BBs and major CAs pretty much accurate, I want to be historical.

2 BBs and 2 CAs starting at 3 STR and lowered defense values for the BBs would IMHO simulate the cost of clearing the mines (if the player chooses to reinforce them) and the BBs would still have -1 defense/attack vs. ships/subs and -2 vs. Air/Carriers

[Scook]

If you want to include them all, then yes, 3 STR fleets would be a good compromise. They would be cannon fodder for any Germany fleet presence unless Stalin wants to spend money on ships, which won't happen most games.

[Blashy]

Ok, here is what is now uploaded. Always open to better suggestions, I just want the 4x10 STR version to be gone.

2BBs, 2CAs at 3 STR.

BBs -1 Naval Attack/Defense and Sub Defense. -2 Air, Carrier and Bomber defense.

If anyone has better ideas, fire away, keep in mind the goal here is to remain historical as much as possible.

[Capt Andrew]

Yes, they would be cannon fodder for the Kriegsmarine, at least in the beginning. And that is historical.

Perhaps (and these are merely suggestions for discussion):

- Soviet Red Navy: One str 3 BB (Marat), one str 3 CA (Kirov) on start. Reduced defenses.

- Red Navy: Move the str 3 BB and a CA to Soviet build cue. Perhaps Sept 41 for the BB and Sept 44 for the CA. (Reasoning below)

- Red Navy: Add str 5 Soviet sub to build cue, either August or September 1942 to represent S-13's (a Stalinets-class submarine) group. (Note: The S-13 was commissioned in July 31, 1941, but didn't see any action until the first weeks of Sept '42. This sub was also responsible for one of the worst disaster in naval history, the sinking of the German boat Wilhelm Gustloff LINK, select the ship ... more than 9,000 casualties, half were children.

- Finland: On start, one str 5 BB (reduced defenses and attack) to represent the battleship/coastal defense ships "Ilmarinen" and "Väinämöinen", gun boats, minelayers, etc naval groups.LINK

- Germany: June 1941 build que, add sub to Baltic Navy OOB to represent the Finnish/German sub efforts based in Finland (mainly the 22nd U-Bootfotilla - U140, 142, 144, 145, and 149)

- Weather: If possible (!), add possible ice weather effects for Tiles next to (and including) Leningrad port to represent the historical conditions. (Note: Nearly every Finnish coastal defense ship also had icebreaking capabilities... is there a way for them to be exempt from ice conditions? If not, no big deal.)

My reasoning for moving the Soviet ships to the build cue is to accurately reflect the total dominance the German navy had in the Baltic until later in the war, while preserving the historical 'feel'. Adding the ice conditions (which lasted until June in 1942 I believe, would really add a nice flavor!)

Blashy - got your turns, spent time on this post and will get to our game as soon as I get the wife off my back (honey-do list)!

[Retributar]

The "Job-Jar"!...is never Empty!,... 'Capt Andrew '!.

You have an 'Extraordinary Historical' understanding of the 'Soviet Baltic Fleet' in WW2!. Few other's know anything about it,including me!,...therefore!...Coudo's to your knowledge in this department!.

Your historical understanding in this department is what i think Blashy is looking for!,...let's hope that it is considered and implemented if at all possible!.

[Capt Andrew]

Haha, thanks Retributar. I'd hardly call in knowledge - it's more research oriented. I do try to stop by the local library every once and a while and read some WW2 history books. (Recently read "The Rock Of Anzio" by Flint Whitlock...excellent read!) I guess it started with the fascination I had for my Grandfather's German helmet and the stories of his "walk around Europe".

I was looking for a mod like this when Blashy posted his (I can't wait to prod him into a WWI campaign...). This has quickly become one of my favorite campaigns to play, and I like helping Blashy out (much to his chagrin I imagine). So the research and suggestions I've made for the Baltic and for the Malta effect are just an effort to help him with, what I feel, is a fantastic mod! It's difficult trying to make a game that is historically based, yet "balanced" enough to be fun to play either side! Hubert did a great job, and I think Blashy has added to it.

If he gets some of the Malta scripts added that I've suggested, along with the Baltic situated, it will be "perfect". (I think he's asked Edwin to help with that.) But that's my opinion, others may disagree with my suggestions or changes that Blashy has made. IE - I wasn't in favor of the defense bonus to the HQ's, but it really hasn't been a factor.

[Moonslayer]

Just finished playing this mod as the allies on the hardest settings and I think the balance is not quite right yet.

Forgive me if the Axis AI has had no work done on it but it performed pitifully. The war was over by the end of '42 after the Germans had only managed to capture Poland and Denmark. Belgium and France remained free and keeping the Axis in check until the USSR entered the war and marched straight to Berlin.

For a historical mod which has spent so much time getting the Soviet fleet correct I found the other naval forces under represented. Maybe Blashy could use some help getting them historically correct also?

I did like the research modifications that were made, however, and do think there is some potential for this mod.

Next weekend I will have a go at playing the Axis powers and see how I fare.

[Blashy]

Moonslayer, the Axis AI has had NO work done and so you will beat it easily.

The Allied AI has Timskorn's scripts which help it alot (although it still needs engine work that no scripting can fix).

I can't balance that part.

The work I've done is best suited vs. the Allied AI (hardest setting) or vs. a human opponent.

The Allied AI is still not a challenge for an experienced player, although it behaves much better with the Timskorn scripts.

[Blashy]

Thanks for all the great info Capt Andrew.

Kuniworth told me that the 2 BBs and 2 CAs were there in 1939 and so I would not want to have them appear later if they were already there historically.

The ice thingy is a problem, I'll look into it, I might be able to make it happen, I think it should be in there as well if it can.

The Sub in the queue for Germany I don't know about that one, Germany had tons of subs in the queue and we did have a sub in the queue at some point in testing. I was disapointed to see it go.

Soviet sub, thanks for finding that info, I had forgotten about that incident. I will make the sub appear historically by date July 31 1941 but only at STR 5, the player will need to invest to have it active, which could be ASAP or much later which is what occured, let the player decide.

[Blashy]

I've managed to simulate the ice conditions on the Noth Baltic Sea.

I simply created a new SEA weather zone named North Baltic Sea and in winter ice is 100%.

So 3 tiles (including Leningrad) are weather zone 19 near that area as well as some in the North Baltic Sea between Sweden and Finland that should not hinder gameplay in anyway, just historical in nature.

The Sub is now in the queue.

German sub I'm not sure yet, I'm inclined to put it in but it might be too much for UK, UK might have to get one chit in ASW to counter. Have to see how the current set up plays out.

[Blashy]

I will leave the campaign as is for one week and hope to get some feedback or more notes on what can be changed/added so it can be more historical.

[Moonslayer]

Originally posted by Blashy:

Moonslayer, the Axis AI has had NO work done and so you will beat it easily.

Thanks for that... I was under the impression that you had used someone else's Axis scripts as well. Clearly not

I am a great fan of the naval war side of things in SC and would love to help you improve this area of your mod. To whet the appetite here is the OOB of the Kriegsmarine at the outbreak of war:

BB Bismarck (Commissioned 08/1940)

BB Tirpitz (Commissioned 02/1941)

CA Scharnhorst

CA Gneisenau

CA Prinz Eugen (Commissioned 08/1940)

CA Blucher (Commissioned 09/1939)

CA Admiral Hipper

CA Graf Spee (Possibly not considered due to it's location in 09/1939)

CA Admiral Scheer (Damaged at the outset of the war and underwent repairs until 10/1940)

CA Deutschland (Renamed Lutzow in 11/1939)

CV Graf Zeppelin (Launched 1938 but never commissioned)

[Blashy]

I guess if a ship is not commissioned it does not see service so no use in including that CV.

That's 5 CAs that would also mean adding alot of British CAs, BBs and possible CVs missing from the OOB, possibly USA as well.

Same goes for Italy.

I would need all those as well if not it will be imbalanced OOB historical.

[Blashy]

OK, it is obvious that if I go by OOB for all countries in terms of BBs and CAs, as well as Subs it will be too many for the map of this size.

So I will follow Hubert's lead in some way.

If I can get my hands on the OOB of all majors I will then divide by half which is what Hubert has done for Germany by using Moonslayer's OOB information.

So UK, Italy, USA, French OOB anyone? For CAs, Subs and BBs that were ready or in production (date they entered service needed). Thanks.

[ July 17, 2006, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Blashy ]

[Moonslayer]

These are the OOBs for 09/1939 (with one exception) with ships almost completed or undergoing refitting/repairing noted down too. Other ships were already under construction but it is getting very late here now!

United Kingdom OOB

Home Fleet and UK waters:

BB – Royal Sovereign, Ramilles, Royal Oak, Nelson, Rodney, Resolution, Revenge, Valiant (repairing), Queen Elizabeth (repairing)

BC – Hood, Repulse, Renown

CA – Norfolk, London (rebuilding), Suffolk (refitting), Southampton, Glasgow, Hawkins (refitting), Frobisher (refitting)

CV – Ark Royal, Furious, Courageous, Hermes, Argus (commissioned 10/1939)

SS – 22 Subs

Med Fleet:

BB – Warspite, Barham, Malaya

CA – Devonshire, Shropshire, Sussex

CV – Glorious

SS – 10 Subs (Malta)

Italy OOB

BB – Guilio Cesare, Conte di Cavour, Littorio (commissioned 05/1940), Vittorio Veneto (commissioned 04/1940)

CA – Zara, Gorizia, Fiume, Pola, Trento, Bolzano, Trieste

SS – 104 Subs

USA OOB (Atlantic 12/1941)

BB – New Mexico, Mississippi, Idaho, Arkansas, New York, Texas, North Carolina, Washington

CA – Augusta, Tuscaloosa, Quincy, Vincennes, Wichita

CV – Hornet, Yorktown, Wasp, Ranger

SS – 58 Subs

France OOB

Algerian Fleet:

BC – Lorraine, Provence, Bretagne

CA – Algerie, Foch, Dupleix, Duquesne, Tourville, Colbert

Brest Fleet:

BC – Dunkerque, Strasbourg, Paris, Courbet

CV – Bearn

SS – 12 Subs

Toulon Fleet:

SS – 26 Subs

[Blashy]

WOW! I can't thank you enough for this.

I need one more thing if you can. The OOB for Germany, it will help me for comparitive analysis, especially for subs.

A BC is about in between a BB and CA right? 2 BCs = 1 BB makes sense?

[Capt Andrew]

I would only make sure that ships listed are in the available pool. If every single ship is added to the map or build cue, it takes away from the building possibilities. Decisions almost have to be made in a case by case situation. The Admiral Graf Spree is a perfect example. Sure, it made it onto the campaign map before sinking, but it's not worth adding.

I recall a conversation on the boards at one time (years ago?) that discussed the OOB stats for SC1 and how each naval unit represented, instead, a fleet of ships. If that's the case, I wonder what scale Hubert used to represent navies. I'd stick to that and only add ships that were left off in error. Just my opinion though.

Historical Note: The Graf Spree and Lutzow (Hitler renamed it from the 'Deutschland' becuase it would be horrible for morale if a ship called the Deutschland was ever destroyed!)were called "Panzerschiffe", or "Armored Ships" (also referred to as 'pocket battleships'). This was because they were the first diesel ships with electronically welded armor. Some would argue they were perhaps the most deadly cruisers in the Atlantic. For those interested, http://www.voodoo.cz/battleships/ is a good site for info about the dreadnaughts of WW2.

[Capt Andrew]

Every German OOB stat you could ever want is right here: http://www.feldgrau.com/ Worth bookmarking for future mod tweaks!

[Blashy]

It looks as if Hubert went to HALF the OOB if I go by Germany and Italy and so I've done the same for all others.

Here is what I did and it is uploaded. The subs are a work in progress, continued tomorrow.

50- The OOB for ALL Major Navies is historical but the actual numbers were divided by half due to the map size. This was already close to this setting in Hubert's default campaign. I've simply used historical OOB information to have it exactly half for all majors. The following changes are bellow:

a) Historical OOB for the Russian fleet in the Baltic (2BBs, 2CAs) and Black Sea (1BB, 2CAs). In the game it is 1BB and 1 CA in the Baltic as well as 1 s-13 in the production queue at STR 5.

The Baltic fleet starts at 3 STR, if the player chooses to reinforce them it will simulate the heavy cost of clearing the mine fields the Germans had setup. As well the BBs have been reduced in the following areas: BBs -1 Naval Attack/Defense and Sub Defense. -2 Air, Carrier and Bomber defense. They were 30 year old BBs and so nothing comparable to more recent or properly refited BBs by other Majors.

The Black Sea fleet is 1 CA and 1 BB at STR 5.

Germany Historical OOB:

BB Bismarck (Commissioned 08/1940)

BB Tirpitz (Commissioned 02/1941)

CA Scharnhorst

CA Gneisenau

CA Prinz Eugen (Commissioned 08/1940)

CA Blucher (Commissioned 09/1939)

CA Admiral Hipper

CA Graf Spee (Possibly not considered due to it's location in 09/1939)

CA Admiral Scheer (Damaged at the outset of the war and underwent repairs until 10/1940)

CA Deutschland (Renamed Lutzow in 11/1939)

CV Graf Zeppelin (Launched 1938 but never commissioned)

In game: 2BBs, 4CAs.

c) United Kingdom Historical OOB

Home Fleet and UK waters:

BB – Royal Sovereign, Ramilles, Royal Oak, Nelson, Rodney, Resolution, Revenge, Valiant (repairing), Queen Elizabeth (repairing)

BC – Hood, Repulse, Renown

CA – Norfolk, London (rebuilding), Suffolk (refitting), Southampton, Glasgow, Hawkins (refitting), Frobisher (refitting)

CV – Ark Royal, Furious, Courageous, Hermes, Argus (commissioned 10/1939)

SS – 22 Subs

Med Fleet:

BB – Warspite, Barham, Malaya

CA – Devonshire, Shropshire, Sussex

CV – Glorious

SS – 10 Subs (Malta)

IN game: 4BBs, 2.5CAs, 3CVs.

d) Italy Historical OOB

BB – Guilio Cesare, Conte di Cavour, Littorio (commissioned 05/1940), Vittorio Veneto (commissioned 04/1940)

CA – Zara, Gorizia, Fiume, Pola, Trento, Bolzano, Trieste

SS – 104 Subs.

In game: 2BBs, 2CAs.

e) France Historical OOB

Algerian Fleet:

BC – Lorraine, Provence, Bretagne

CA – Algerie, Foch, Dupleix, Duquesne, Tourville, Colbert

Brest Fleet:

BC – Dunkerque, Strasbourg, Paris, Courbet

CV – Bearn

SS – 12 Subs

Toulon Fleet:

SS – 26 Subs

In game: 1.7BBs, 3CAs, .5CV.

f) USA Historical OOB (Atlantic 12/1941)

BB – New Mexico, Mississippi, Idaho, Arkansas, New York, Texas, North Carolina, Washington

CA – Augusta, Tuscaloosa, Quincy, Vincennes, Wichita

CV – Hornet, Yorktown, Wasp, Ranger

SS – 58 Subs

In game: 4BBs, 2.5CAs, 2CVs.

Some are in the production queue as stated in the historical OOB.

Submarine OOB is still not updated so far it has the default campaign submarines, nothing more.

51- I've managed to simulate the ice conditions on the Noth Baltic Sea.

I simply created a new SEA weather zone named North Baltic Sea and in winter ice is 100%.

So 3 tiles (including Leningrad) are weather zone #19 near that area as well as some in the North Baltic Sea between Sweden and Finland that should not hinder gameplay in anyway, just historical in nature.

[Capt Andrew]

RE: USA Carriers

Yorktown: Was in the Atlantic ONLY for it's construction, training, and it's participation in the historical "Fleet Problem XX" - she left for the Pacific on April 20, 1939. Due to the U-boat's raiding successes, the Yorktown was transferred to the Atlantic. She arrived in Bermuda on May 12, 1941 - but only stuck around until December 1941. With Pearl Harbor, she left for the Pacific, never to return (Battle of Midway).

Hornet Commissioned October 20, 1941 in Norfolk, VA. AS SOON as the crew was trained, she sailed for the Pacific, never to return to the Atlantic. I wouldn't count the Hornet at all!

Wasp Commissioned April 20, 1940 and trained in Guantanamo Bay. She had a rough start and didn't get her planes until October 1940, and they weren't "trained and battle ready" until months later. In May 1941, she began her first patrolling of the Gulf of Mexico/Carrib on U-Boat duty. (Same time as Yorktown arrived in the Gulf/Atlantic!) Interestingly enough, it was the Wasp that brought the first Spitfires (47 type Mark V) to Malta on April 20th and again on May 9th - under the cover of night. The year? 1942!

Ranger: USA's first carrier, commissioned in June 1934. Sailed from the Pacific to the Carribean in April 1939. She patrolled the South Atlantic, from Argentina to Africa's Gold Coast. I'd say not to count her except she played a part of some skirmish's in French Morocco in 1942 and extensive operations off Norway in 1943. She left for the Pacific in July 1944. I'd count the Ranger for USA starting stats.

So my recommendations would be: OOB is 2 carriers - halved is 1 for your mod. I would either; (a) start the USA with a half strength USS Ranger on game start, and put the Wasp in the USA Naval Reinforcement script (ie - Spain joins Axis), or (b)not include the Ranger at all and just put a full strength Wasp in the May 1941 build cue.

[ July 17, 2006, 07:31 PM: Message edited by: Capt Andrew ]

[Blashy]

Thanks for that information. So 2 Carriers were in te Atlantic with actually 1 being active the other so so.

I would put Wasp to arrive until October 1940 at 5 STR (reinforcing simulates getting its plane).

With the possibility of Ranger arriving as extra for Spain.

Make sense?

[Blashy]

Latest version updated with the navies and CV fixed for USA.

[ebitt]

Thanks for an extremely interesting mod. Against the Allied AI I was up to March, 1942 and was dumped out of the game when an American transport tripped over an Italian sub. This occurred in the turn where the US declares war on Algeria and attempts to conduct an amphibious assault on the same turn. I sent the error files to Fury. This was using the 18 July version.

One question: Army Group C (Center?) (1st, 5th and 7th Armies) had been formed and was commanded by von Leeb. Shouldn't he be put back in the starting OOB? The 1st and 7th Armies were probably not much more than Corps strength, but the 5th Army (on paper) was pretty strong.

[Scook]

One question: Army Group C (Center?)

Nope, the "C" stood for just "C". OKW changed Army Group names to fit, initally they had Army Groups A,B, and C. Made it easy for the clerks to do their paperwork which they burned later.

[Capt Andrew]

RE: US Battleships (Historical reflection and food for thought for Blashy OOB Historical Mod - a long post but a good read for those interested!)

New Mexico– Commissioned May 20, 1918 and based in Pearl Harbor, she sent to the Atlantic on neutrality patrol from June 16, 1941 to Dec 7th. Returned to the Pacific and did not return except for her decommission in July 1946 (she was sold for scrap). Since it was less than six months of neutrality patrol of America’s coastline, I wouldn’t count this in the OOB.

Mississippi – Another New Mexico class dreadnaught, commissioned December 1918 and based in the Pacific. Atlantic theater consisted of two supply escorts from Virginia to Iceland in September 1941, spending two months in Iceland before returning to the Pacific two days after Pearl Harbor. She returned to Norfolk for conversion to one of the first guided missile warships in 1946. Never saw action in the three and a half months she sailed in the Atlantic. I wouldn’t count this in the OOB.

Idaho – Another New Mexico class, commissioned in March 1919 and assigned to the Pacific Fleet. Sent to the Atlantic for sub patrol with the New Mexico, returning to the Pacific with the Mississippi. She returned to the Atlantic in October 1945 to be decommissioned and sold for scrap. With less than six months of neutrality patrol, I don’t think I would count this either.

North Carolina – The first of the new USA battleships (faster, 16” guns) commissioned April 9, 1941. The USS NC (nicknamed “the Showboat”) spent the next 14 months patrolling the Gulf of Mexico before heading to the Pacific on June 10, 1942. She didn’t see any action in the Atlantic since her “patrol time” was actually time spent working out so many kinks and bugs. In fact, her propulsion was so out of whack and the vibrations so severe, the aft decks of the ship were deemed unsafe and uninhabitable. After the numerous new drive shafts and refits, they finally got them worked out…and she was sent packing to through the Panama Canal. She spent a year on patrol duty, but saw no real Atlantic action…not sure how you would want to represent her in your OOB.

Washington – The only other North Carolina class battleship, commissioned May 15, 1941. She also had many of the same problems of her sister ship, and also spent the time working the kinks out in the warm waters of the Carribean. The flagship for Task Force 39 (later 99) and Admiral Wilcox, she sailed with the Wasp and patrolled the waters of the Atlantic convoy routes and British Isles until July 1942. She’s perhaps infamous for two historical storylines in the Atlantic. First, was when Admiral Wilcox “mysteriously fell overboard” and was lost at sea – cause of death was determined to be either a heart attack or suicide. Second, was on May 1, 1942 when the UK’s King George accidentally ran into the HMS Punjabi destroyer, splitting her in two. The Punjabi sank right in the Washington’s path, and as Murphy’s Law predicted, the sinking destroyers depth charges fired off directly under the Washington’s hull. One sunken ship, two damaged battleships… a total cluster f*&k. The Washington underwent repairs to make the trip back to New York, where she underwent a complete overhaul. On August 23, 1942, she sailed for the Pacific, earning numerous combat awards (she’s the only US BB to sink an enemy BB - IJN) and the distinction of lasting the entire Pacific campaign without losing a man to hostile (enemy) action. I believe she’s in the build cue already for the standard campaign.

New York – The lead ship of her class, she was commissioned on April 15, 1914. This steamship dreadnaught joined the US’s neutrality patrol in June 1941, guarding convoys for Iceland and Scapa Flow. She brought her 10 14” guns to bear in bombarding North Africa in 1942 and spent the rest of Atlantic theater sailing the convoy routes before leaving to join in the invasions of Iwo Jima and Okinawa in 1945. Decommissioned in August 1946, she was towed to sea and used for target practice. She withstood 8 hours of a continuous full scale pounding by ships and planes before becoming an artificial reef.

Texas – The other NY class steam dreadnaught, commissioned March 12, 1914. Relegated to “training duty” before being added to the Neutrality Patrol in June 1941 and escorting lend-lease ships to Europe. She underwent retrofitting and overhauls for the convoy duty and saw her first action in November 1942 (“Operation Torch”). She softened up the beaches of Normandy and shelled the bejesus out of German installations in France. She strayed to close to the shore batteries one time and paid a nasty price, being sent back to England for repairs before joining the Med units and clearing a path for the 45th Division’s invasion of St. Tropez in southern France (post-Anzio). She joined the New York at Iwo Jima in Feb 1945. She was decommissioned in 1946 and opened as a floating museum in Houston, Texas in 1990.

Arkansas – Commissioned September 1912. Joined the New York and Texas for patrol duties in June 1941. From 1939 through 1942, she assisted with convoy duty between periods of downtime for gradual refittings. In 1944, she finally saw action for D-Day, shelling Omaha Beach. She took a ton of fire from shore batteries, but amazingly none of them hit her. She joined the Med fleet for Operation Anvil, the invasion of Southern France in August 1944, before leaving with the New York and Texas for Iwo Jima in 1945.

So, after that historical flashback, my tallies are:

- three battleships with no action and only 3 to 6 months of operation time in the Atlantic

- two battleships (NC and Wash) that spent 14-18 months in the Atlantic theater with none or some action (Washington)

- three old steamship dreadnaughts (NY, Tex, Ark) that saw extensive action in the Atlantic theater.