Historical Flag Mod?

[John C]

I hope we can avoid the political discussion, but when someone completes a historical flag mod, please post a link.

Thanks.

EDIT: I went ahead and did the mod. DOWNLOAD LINK

[ May 27, 2006, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: John C ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Well son, we don't want your Nazi flags. It's against the law in Germany & Austria. It's against what is right with me. Law isn't always just. Justice isn't always legal. But in this case, it's both.

-Legend

[John C]

It sounds as though you shouldn't use such a mod based on your beliefs.

Request still stands though. When someone creates the inevitable mod, please post a link for the rest of us.

[ May 25, 2006, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: John C ]

[Jim Mason]

OKAY - I went ahead and modded it. It's so easy to do, I'm amazed that it has taken this long. I went to the "flag-sprites" BMP and simply "painted" it to something better, then named it "flag-sprites1". You will have to put your original "flag-sprites" file somewhere else, then change this one back to the original name so the computer will recognize it, I think.

Anyway, I don't have the ability to post things on the web, but if there's someone out there who does, send me an e-mail james.d.mason@okstate.edu

and I'll put it in an attachment to you. Note: I will not e-mail it to EVERYONE! I want someone to put it on the web or something so I only have to do it once.

Jim

[Jim Mason]

OH - and it's not completely historical . . .

[Jim Mason]

and now that I've tested it out, I realize I need to change the flag on the HQ's too.

Now I find out that instead of making the "white" part white, it's clear. (So the background shows through) Does anyone know what's up with that and how to fix?

[ May 25, 2006, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Jim Mason ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Some sick pups.

[Timskorn]

Found it odd that the historical Nazi flag has been used already via the logos (forum banner, icons and main screen). Can't see the whole thing though, but it's definitely not the Iron Cross we see in-game.

[Jim Mason]

. . . yack . . .

[Desert Dave]

Timskorn, ever Vigilant:

Found it odd that the historical Nazi flag has been used already via the logos (forum banner, icons and main screen). Can't see the whole thing though, but it's definitely not the Iron Cross we see in-game.

I would respectively request

That ALL "Nazi insignia"

Be removed, wherever

It might appear.

Thank you.

[ May 27, 2006, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[John C]

Education, not censorship, is the key.

Should all confederate flags be removed from American Civil War games because some find that flag to be offensive?

Should the American flag be removed from all games because some find the current leadership of that nation to be misguided?

Should the Soviet flag be removed because of the attrocities committed by that "evil empire" and the ultimate failure of their system?

Nazi flags are removed from games because the German government does not permit that symbol and any company wishing to do business in Germany must use an alternate. I understand the business reason to change the flag. But I do not understand the apparent hysteria on this board. The Nazi party was evil. The swatica was their symbol. But history is history and that is the flag and the symbol under which Germany fought in WWII. Wanting a historically accurate game is not evil. It does not indicate support for the Nazi party or their ideas. It is simply a recognition of what actually was. And a witch hunt against even partial symbols of a currupt regime is, in my humble opinion, silly and misguided. You do not need to agree with it, but that is my opinion on the matter.

[Desert Dave]

But I do not understand the apparent hysteria on this board.

It ain't no hysteria, John C,

It is purely reasonable and rational

Disgust.

Gotta keep that back-brain

Wet-dream of the Fantasy Freak

At forefront, else, IMO,

We see it all over again.

As it's re-commencing... now.

[Desert Dave]

ADDENDUM:

Last night,

I was testing new patch,

And,

My wife happened to come into

Well-stocked gaming room,

And she noticed that NAZI flag

On BF's logo,

And she asked me:

"Dave,

Why does this company that you associate with"

Anyway, she goes on:

"Why do you NOT mention something to them BF folks,

That our sister-in-law being Jewish,

And who lost MANY relatives

To them Nazi Pigs,

Would REALLY have to wonder

WHERE IN HELL!

Is your priorities, your

Sense of honor and decency?

That you wouldn't even protest this

Lack of common Corporate consideration?"

I could not answer her - then,

But, NOW

I let her read the things I have typed

Today.

Not enough, but a start.

[ May 27, 2006, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: Desert Dave ]

[John C]

Dave -

I respect that you are offended by the acts of the Nazis. I will certainly not defend them or their policies. Their actions were horribly evil. But history is replete with atrocities.

The crusades were similarly an attempt at genocide. Not only do people not protest the use of the Christian Cross in games, but I am aware of no one objecting to Crusader Kings - a game specifically about religious persecution and murder.

Joseph Stalin was a murderous tyrant, yet I do not see any outrage at the use of the Soviet flag. Why not?

The confederacy fought to keep an entire race of people enslaved. Yet American Civil war games routinely use their flag without protest. Does that bother you at all?

Your sister-in-law may have been Jewish, but surely that does not mean that you only object to the senseless murder of people who are like you and your family. Would your wife even recognize the flag of Sudan that flew over the crimes at Darfur? If you were playing Sim-UN instead of SC2 would she insist you contact the game's maker to have Sundan's flag modified?

There is much evil in the world - both past and present. The vilification of one symbol in the universe of evil acts does not grant moral superiority. If you wish to play without a swastika in your game, I support your right to do so. But please do not jump to the erroneous conclusion that I am somehow morally bankrupt because I choose to do otherwise.

[Major Spinello]

I would say that there are differences. The Soviet flag, for example, was used before Joseph Stalin, and so was the Christian Cross before and after the Crusades (which, though mostly pursued under questionable motives, had absolutely nothing to do with an "attempt at genocide" at all by the way). I am conscious about the association of the confederate flag with slavery, though I think that it still is not comparable to the Nazi banner ...

[John C]

I am no expert on the Crusades, but most sources I have seen suggest the practices were more than merely "questionable motives".

Source: Christian apology for the Crusades

By the middle of the 11th century, Christianity had formally split between the Roman Catholic Church and the Byzantine Empire: The Emperor/Bishop of Constantinople and the Bishop of Rome had mutually excommunicated each other. In 1071, the Turks defeated the latter at the Battle of Manzikert. This left Constantinople exposed to attack from Muslims. Meanwhile, Christians were being ambushed during their pilgrimages to Jerusalem.

Emperor Alexius asked Pope Urban II for assistance. On 1095-NOV-27, the Pope called on Europeans to go on a crusade to liberate Jerusalem from its Muslim rulers. "The first and second wave of Crusaders murdered, raped and plundered their way up the Rhine and down the Danube as they headed for Jerusalem." The "army" was primarily composed of untrained peasants with their families, with a core of trained soldiers. On the way to the Middle East, they decided that only one of their goals was to wrest control of Jerusalem from the Muslims. A secondary task was to rid the world of as many non-Christians as possible - both Muslims and Jews. The Crusaders gave the Jews two choices in their slogan: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed as the first Crusade passed through. Some Jewish writers refer to these events as the "first holocaust." Once the army reached Jerusalem and broke through the city walls, they slaughtered all the inhabitants that they could find (men, women, children, newborns). After locating about 6,000 Jews holed up in the synagogue, they set the building on fire; the Jews were burned alive. The Crusaders found that about 30,000 Muslims had fled to the al Aqsa Mosque. The Muslim were also slaughtered without mercy.

We need not debate the extent of the horrors of the crusade. If I make a mistake in over-emphasizing the crimes committed then at least allow me to ensure they are not subsequently under-emphasized through your response.

Generally though, your points are valid Major Spinello. There can be no EXACT parallel though I believe my examples are reasonably close. Regardless, history is still replete with examples of evil and deplorable behavior and I find it somewhat odd that so many feel compelled to remove the symbols of this one regime while completely ignoring all others. But whether we are discussing just this one symbol or every unsavory symbol of the past, I personally do not believe the whitewashing of history accomplishes anything useful.

I understand the desire to remove the swastika from the political arena and to prevent skinheads from marching through the streets recruiting the disaffected and the ignorant into their venomous cults. But to express morale outrage at others wishing to include the swastika in a game that attempts to simulate the grand strategy of WWII in Europe seems less reasonable to me. I wish for my game to include the historically accurate symbols and I do not believe that makes me any less virtuous than others who feel differently.

Anyway, I believe I have made my point as clearly as I can and it would serve no purpose to discuss this topic further. While we did not all agree, I thank everyone who participated for keeping the discussion civil.

[Major Spinello]

I agree that the discussion should maybe not go much further. I just want to add that I did not want to play down the brutality and the crimes that came with the first crusade especially. I´m sorry if it seemed like that. However, genocide in both the sense and scope of the 20th century was really not at all the aim. The political, strategical and economical motives of the different states, persons and institutions involved are complex, diverse, and furthermore change considerably from the first to the eight crusade. Actually, the whole issue is a very intruiging topic in its own right.

[jon_j_rambo]

The Crusades were done by the Catholics not Christians.

[jon_j_rambo]

@John C. --- The subject isn't about Sudan, Crusades, General Lee...the subject is about the Nazi flag & symbol. It's something we don't want, whether we are Jew, Gentile, Catholic, Baptist, Christian, Atheist, Buddaboy, Tree Hugger, Male, Female, Black, White, Yellow, Green, Purple, Young, Old, Rich, Poor, Fat, Skinny, Bald, Afro, Left Handed, Right Handed, Smart, Dumb, etc.

You get the idea? Take the Nazi flag & put it in the burn pile. Has nothing to do with Stalin, Po-Pot, or any other of your favorite killers.

[John C]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

The Crusades were done by the Catholics not Christians.

Just for the sake of clarity, at the time of the crusades Christian believers were split into the Catholic Church in Rome and the Eastern Orthodox Church in Constantinople. As discussed above, the crusades were the mutual response of both churches to the rise of the Muslims. Martin Luther did not arrive to form Protestantism until the 16th century, almost 500 years after Urban II's 1st crusade.

So, the crusades were perpetuated by the united Christian churches in existance at the time. The Bishops called for the crusades and, again as discussed above, the worst offenders were the peasants - the rank and file Christians - who took it upon themselves to expand their mission.

In every sense, the crusades were perpetuated by Christians. You might argue that they did not follow the true teachings or that they were not GOOD Christians, but what they did, they did for God in the name of Jesus Christ under the banner of His church and with the blessing of its duely appointed leaders.

[John C]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

@John C. --- The subject isn't about Sudan, Crusades, General Lee...the subject is about the Nazi flag & symbol. It's something we don't want, whether we are Jew, Gentile, Catholic, Baptist, Christian, Atheist, Buddaboy, Tree Hugger, Male, Female, Black, White, Yellow, Green, Purple, Young, Old, Rich, Poor, Fat, Skinny, Bald, Afro, Left Handed, Right Handed, Smart, Dumb, etc.

You get the idea? Take the Nazi flag & put it in the burn pile. Has nothing to do with Stalin, Po-Pot, or any other of your favorite killers.

Rambo -

I understand your preference and I am tolerant enough to respect your right to play the game in whatever manner and with whatever symbols you choose.

[Franky-Boy]

Where's the problem? It's quite easy.

Those people who want to use the original nazi flag in SC2 with this mod can use it and those people who don't want to use it can ignore this mod. It's everyone's own personal decision.

A lot of people seem to forget that freedom of opinion is a basic right. I also don't denounce people who are against abortion due to their religious ideology, even though I've got a completely different opinion in this matter.

@jon_j_rambo

Only kings and emperors speak of himself in third person. I noticed that you always say "We don't want this mod..." instead of "I don't want this mod...".

Ciao Frank

[ May 27, 2006, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Franky-Boy ]

[Chris G]

STFU jews!

[John C]

Originally posted by Chris G:

STFU jews!

Ummm... just for the record... that didn't help your case. You just made yourself look pathetic rather than sympathetic.

[Michael Dorosh]

Seanachai...if you're out there watching my back like the guardian angel you are...remind me never again to wander into this odd little place, full of vile newcomers...I thought it was JasonC; it even sounded like him.

Ruby slippers, please....