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Field Kitchens


Philippe

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Somewhere in my hard drive I have period photographs of a German field bakery and a mobile wurst unit (aka mobile butchers).

This kind of thing isn't that important in a small unit tactical game. But along with ammo dumps and field hospitals, it was a highly important and visible part of every unit's backfield.

Is there going to be an allowance for this kind of thing in CMC ?

I'm assuming that vehicle repair facilities will get factored in somehow. Those tanks that break down every time you look at them cross-eyed will get carted off to various motor pools for repair.

I was rereading Enemy at the Gates the other day, and noticed that there were dwindling herds of cattle milling about in the German backfield. Keeping your food alive as long as possible goes a long ways towards solving any spoilage problems. I wonder if this was very common when the front wasn't stationary.

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German Infantry Handbook mentions that not just cows, but herds of pigs, were kept in the divisional trains. They also had a field bakery company for every division.

These could be simulated for those wanting to include them as Maneuver Elements by assigning trucks and some troops to a company headquarters unit (perhaps LMG teams to simulate employment of that weapon even in rear echelon units); useful for breakthrough type operations (or breakout) though tactically these were generally insignificant and usually located well away from the firing line. We are aware of the exceptions, of course.

The oddest thing I noticed in a photo collection of German soldiers in a bakery company in 1940 was how many of them had the ribbon of the Iron Cross Second Class on their uniform.

Then I realized how many had mustaches; both were the hallmark of First World War veterans; they were obviously in the field kitchen to allow abler and younger men to take their place in the rifle companies.

I'd suggested for that reason that such rear-echelon units be modelled with Weakened or even Unfit troop types, though not necessarily Green or Conscript; these men had been under fire before, albeit 25 years earlier.

[ October 18, 2005, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Russophile ]

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Taken from the 'Features' section:

• Supply Availability and the gradual depletion of resources, including Ammunition; Petrol, Oil and Lubricants; and Basic Supplies such as food, water, medical supplies.

It seems these things will be taken account of, but the actual modelling of these units *might* be going a bit too far (Hey, it's gonna be a bit crazy just handling the 'teeth' elements of your average Division rather than wondering where the Sanitation Unit has got to...!! :D )

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Hey, in real life, in the Army Reserve, it is part of my job to worry about where the "Sanitation Unit" has gotten to and the "Laundry and Bath Unit" and the "Wheeled Vehicle Maintenance Unit" and the "Tracked Vehicle Maintenance Unit" and the "Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch Repair Detachment" and ... erm ...But I guess I can forego the pleasure of doing that in CMC. But I expect a patch later on!!

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Originally posted by Ike:

Hey, in real life, in the Army Reserve, it is part of my job to worry about where the "Sanitation Unit" has gotten to and the "Laundry and Bath Unit" and the "Wheeled Vehicle Maintenance Unit" and the "Tracked Vehicle Maintenance Unit" and the "Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch Repair Detachment" and ... erm ...But I guess I can forego the pleasure of doing that in CMC. But I expect a patch later on!!

LOL!! :D

But can you get a medal for this...?? ;)

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Originally posted by London Calling:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ike:

Hey, in real life, in the Army Reserve, it is part of my job to worry about where the "Sanitation Unit" has gotten to and the "Laundry and Bath Unit" and the "Wheeled Vehicle Maintenance Unit" and the "Tracked Vehicle Maintenance Unit" and the "Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch Repair Detachment" and ... erm ...But I guess I can forego the pleasure of doing that in CMC. But I expect a patch later on!!

LOL!! :D

But can you get a medal for this...?? ;) </font>

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Originally posted by Philippe:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by London Calling:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ike:

Hey, in real life, in the Army Reserve, it is part of my job to worry about where the "Sanitation Unit" has gotten to and the "Laundry and Bath Unit" and the "Wheeled Vehicle Maintenance Unit" and the "Tracked Vehicle Maintenance Unit" and the "Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch Repair Detachment" and ... erm ...But I guess I can forego the pleasure of doing that in CMC. But I expect a patch later on!!

LOL!! :D

But can you get a medal for this...?? ;) </font>

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I havent said much about supply to date, because we are not sure how much we are going to get in to the release version. Certainly supply depletion will be in.

We have designs for a number of things, but they may have to wait for a patch. I will post something more when we are a little further along with it.

I'm not ruling out mobile field bakeries :)

Hunter

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Originally posted by Hunter:

I'm not ruling out mobile field bakeries :)

Hunter

I hope you do. ;) Well, except as a part of the manstrength of the Div HQ's supply bits.

I just read this column on wargame design: Geryk Analysis

This is what computer games do so well – build a world through the inclusion of detail. Unfortunately, if you’re playing a competitive game, you have to account for all this detail in order to have a chance to win. The problem is that a lot of people don’t see computer games as competitive games in the same way they would if they were boardgames. Instead, they’re projects, almost like extended role-playing games that you lose yourself in for hours at a sitting.
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In the context of that article Sergei mentioned, I'm not so much interested in mobile bakeries, ammo dumps, and field hospitals because I want to see new and outlandish non-combat units included in CMC. What I'm really pushing for is a representation of the supply chain and rear area that is a little less abstracted than the old "units that find themselves out of supply have their combat factors cut in half". I hate that abstraction almost as much as I hate zones of control and 1960's vintage Avalon Hill CRT's.

I don't want a full blown logistics game, because I doubt that it would be much fun to play. But division commanders do have to worry about what gets schlepped where and by whom to a much greater extent than company commanders. I really want to see the ammo not show up for the next firefight if a player does something gamey like use his truck assets for reconnaisance. What makes the idea of CMC so exciting is that by expanding the scope of operations and including a bit of detail you can force the player into realistic behavior without creating elaborate house rules to supress gamey behaviour.

And I'm really looking forward to leading an infantry recon platoon into a battle area where my opponent expects a full-blown battalion-sized attack. One of the problems with CM scenarios is that when troops show up on the battleboard you know something is about to happen and that the odds will be roughly 1:1 -- I'm looking forward to the reintroduction of the element of surprise.

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Originally posted by Philippe:

[snip] I don't want a full blown logistics game, because I doubt that it would be much fun to play. But division commanders do have to worry about what gets schlepped where and by whom to a much greater extent than company commanders. I really want to see the ammo not show up for the next firefight if a player does something gamey like use his truck assets for reconnaisance. What makes the idea of CMC so exciting is that by expanding the scope of operations and including a bit of detail you can force the player into realistic behavior without creating elaborate house rules to supress gamey behaviour.

Good points! The only game that I can recall that even attempted to tackle supply in a 'realistic' way was the old 'V for Victory'/'World at War' series. IIRC, the player would receive a variable tonnage of supplies each day, which could be allocated to the various Divisional HQs and their attatched sub-units. Each HQ could be set at either an 'Attack', 'Normal', 'Defensive' or 'Minimal' supply posture with a corresponding increase/decrease in Attack/Defence/Movement values for the attatched sub-units. Obviously there was never enough 'supply tonnage' to go round so compromises had to be made. Whilst still an extremely abstacted system, it at least meant you had to take account of logistics in your planning.

Like you Philippe, I don't want to be a 'bean counter' but as you and Ike point out these things are vey important, and very occasionally decisive, in the Real World.

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What Phillipe said about logistics: Yes, and I don't want to play "Bean-Counting in the East" either, but more logistical input into operational level command decisions would be a good thing.

And, Sergei, I read that article too and I agree with it, but what I think you'll agree with is more logistics without bogging the game down in counting socks. By the way, does anyone remember the old "monster" boardgame, Campaign for North Africa ? That thing had I don't remember how many "Strategic Phase Supply Phases", but I do remember that they took longer than the combat turns and there was a "water allocation" sub-phase. We don't want that, please, sir. (laugh)

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I wouldn't mind something similar to the OCS boardgames from The Gamers, where you're given supply points(SP) and it's up to the player to use truck/rail units and get them within "throw range" of their fighting units by setting up dumps etc. Every time a unit wants to move or fight,it expends SP.

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Originally posted by Ike:

Hey, in real life, in the Army Reserve, it is part of my job to worry about where the "Sanitation Unit" has gotten to and the "Laundry and Bath Unit" and the "Wheeled Vehicle Maintenance Unit" and the "Tracked Vehicle Maintenance Unit" and the "Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch Repair Detachment" and ... erm ...But I guess I can forego the pleasure of doing that in CMC. But I expect a patch later on!!

I can't wait. 'Combat Mission: Laundry and Bath Unit' is really gonna kick ass.
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Originally posted by Runyan99:

[snips]I can't wait. 'Combat Mission: Laundry and Bath Unit' is really gonna kick ass.

I think it's essential that we see a version of CM that includes both mobile bath units and divisional sausage-making companies (using the division's pigs to recce for minefields will be regarded as gamey).

On the one hand, it's good to model logisitics, and on the other, think what a great title you'd have if baths and sausages are included -- "Combat Mission: from Bad to Wurst".

All the best,

John.

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