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Will vehicles be able to reverse for self preservation behaviour?


Darkmath
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When I was being shot at by saggers in a US Army virtual reality training site, I, as a driver, through my perscope, saw a puff of fire and a small black ball flying toward me.
was this also a flat and lifeless landscape simmilar to CM´s virtual world!? i find no matter how hard something is hidden in virtual worlds(simulators/games)you spott it pretty fast.

also in simulators your allways at 100%-105% awareness/concentation since you "know" something gona happen.

that said, i find it interessting that there is stuff like a "sagger drill", didnt guessed that, but i also find it an verry optimistic apporach ;)

You are not going to "hear" it going off.
hehe, i meant in the game, as RT play was included in the sentence. i dont really think that you hear something going off like you do in the game now.

and yes, i was Radioperator/gunner in a saurer SPz A1(unfortunately, one year later they got replaced by ASCOD´s) in my basic military service and this thing was loud enough. i dont know how it is to sit inside a "modern" totaly closed main battle tank. ;)

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Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

Chainsaw, thanks for backing me up. You and me definatly know what we are talking about. Are you a tanker?

Anyday TC ;)

Nopp im not a tanker, im a grunt (or half grunt, APC gunner in a Mech Coy, or was as conscript) my tank knowledge comes from SB Pro PE and allot of friends who are Gunners/TCs,/Coy COs.

About dodging ATGMs, ofcourse the AI should be able to do that!

Ive been in the army twice (because of injury) and the first time I was a squad leader in the Mech Coy with ATGM (BILL2) as speciality, and flighttime for a BILL2 is 11 seconds (2000m range), and under that time a tank can do allot (wich I learnt as APC gunner later on).

And the blast from the missile going of is what screws the life up for a ATGM crew, if a tank spots that you are trully ****ed.

As I have written here before a tank can get of 2 aimed shots in 10 seconds without problems, and when fighting ATGMs you just need somewhat aimed shots (50m range on HE grenades)

so 11 seconds flight time where the crew have to observe the target vs a tank that can get of a round in 2-3 seconds?

And thats just the first reaction, second is to start zigzaging and getting behind cover (just to get behind a few trees can be enough, going behind a berm might not if the ATGM is top attack)

Next thing is that when one tank spots a dustcloud from a ATGM you hear him yell it out over Companynet, resulting in all the coys tanks starting to zigzag and go for cover tongue.gif

So yes, the AI should be able to zigzag and avoid and fire at ATGMs that are launched all by themself. If they dont THAT is unrealistic.

During a drill I got Knocked out by a TOW2 firing from 3km range, and I saw the blast and smoke from when they fired, without binos... 3km away, and thats in woodland, in desert as Syria is with all it extra dust i feel CMSF do a correct work right now on showing when and from where the ATGM is launched. (wich isnt fun for the boys that are firing the ATGM).

Nevertheles, ATGMS are damn deadly, our TOW2 Platoons ace had a record of 16 tanks before being knocked out (over several engagements) but they need to be positioned right.

And thats the problem in CMSF, all enemy ATGMs ive seen has been located infront of me or between my 10 and 2 o clock, then its damn obvius they are spottedn and killed.

The tanks and Strykers i lost to ATGM has been due to AI not reacting and me playing WEGO only.

/Chain

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hm, verry interessting...

now iam acually eager to see this implemented as this looks to be easylie exploitable ingame.

you force a whole force into zig-zaging and fraking out with a few missiles and than bring your few and lousy tanks to bear(well in scenarios you have some ;) ) and present em many flank shots and on moving vehicles with reduced spotting ability. hm, that sounds fun.

but other than from the enemy side i cant find much positive things wich i would like to have in game. i mean, partly yes, but its a big capability you give to the AI and there is much room to mess things up from the AI side.

i dont know how this would look like in the game, i imagine it looking dumb smile.gif

EDIt: that does not mean that it "could" not be implemented in a good way, but i cant think of one right now.

And thats the problem in CMSF, all enemy ATGMs ive seen has been located infront of me or between my 10 and 2 o clock, then its damn obvius they are spotted and killed.
vehicles spott pretty good to the sides i find, but you are right. problem is that the maps are too narrow sometimes. so its obviouse where things are and easy to cover everything wich leds to many spotts is short time.
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Originally posted by Pandur:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Will vehicles be able to reverse for self preservation behaviour?

over at another thrad about the same thing more or less, someone suggested that tanks should "dodge" ATGM´s like you can do it manually in RT play if you ract instantly after you hear it going off.

</font>

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Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

Thats why we do gunneries - so we do it the same way in combat

BTW, I used to fire about 60-70 rounds per year. Russian tankers get about 2-3 rounds per their whole career, if they are lucky. This is no BS, I talked with a Russian ex-tanker.

Chainsaw, thanks for backing me up. You and me definatly know what we are talking about. Are you a tanker?

The time I quoted , 2 rounds in 6-8 seconds, is in perfect conditions, with everyone doing their job perfectly. Both enemy targets would be exposed, loader is quick, and gunner is experienced.

I used to load one round every 3 seconds when I was young private 9 years ago smile.gif

Posted by DKTanker on that linked site:

"Now, the first round is loaded, the crew sees the targets come up, the gunner might even range to the first target (the TC must not issue a fire command at this point because time will start with his command even if the targets aren't up). As soon as both targets are up the TC gives a quick fire command and the round is down range within 2 seconds. The loader automatically reloads, the gunner on one or the other targets by second 5, round down range in 7. Now a sense of panic hits the crew. Either one or the other or both targets have failed to be hit...time to reengage. Third round down range in 13 seconds quickly followed by round number 4 at 18 seconds. Very good crews can service both targets in 6-8 seconds.

Yes, it's possible. What should be of a greater concern is the need to fire four rounds at two targets, especially as both targets will be at optimum BS range at the time of first round."

Please provide us with some authoritative evidence which substantiates your claim that one of these vehicles is capable of firing 10+ rounds per minute from it's main gun. I will not quible as to the environment. A practice range is fine, Grafenwoehr, wherever. Please, just throw us all a link.

PoE

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Do you mean you need proof that I am a real life M1A1 tanker with 9 years in US Army? I can provide that smile.gif

I was a tanker for about 4 years, a ADA for about 3, MP for the rest.

Yeah, I am not a tanker at the moment, but once a tanker-always a tanker:)

You can also look in Abrams gunnery manual for any info if you dont trust my 4 year experience.

FM 17-12 - Tank Gunnery (M1)

FM 17-12-1-1 - Tank Gunnery (ABRAMS) Volume I

FM 17-12-1-2 - Tank Gunnery (ABRAMS) Volume II - Trainer's Guide

[ October 15, 2007, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: M1A1TankCommander ]

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Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

Do you mean you need proof that I am a real life M1A1 tanker with 9 years in US Army? I can provide that smile.gif

I was a tanker for about 4 years, a ADA for about 3, MP for the rest.

Yeah, I am not a tanker at the moment, but once a tanker-always a tanker:)

You can also look in Abrams gunnery manual for any info if you dont trust my 4 year experience.

FM 17-12 - Tank Gunnery (M1)

FM 17-12-1-1 - Tank Gunnery (ABRAMS) Volume I

FM 17-12-1-2 - Tank Gunnery (ABRAMS) Volume II - Trainer's Guide

Without regard to maneuver, you've got the main gun firing about twice as fast as it would appear capable, say 6-8 rounds per minute. If the m256 can fire 12-15 rounds per minute, then by all means document it. I shall consider virtually anything suitable in this regard, excepting more anecdotes. smile.gif

PoE

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a good loader can load one round every 3-4 seconds. Of course it will be slower after few. The loader will be very tired, ecpecially if they are firing HEAT rounds smile.gif Those things are heavy!

So, lets say everage one round every 10 seconds. So after some math : 6 rounds per minute average.

Clear?

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Prince of Eckmühl, what is your military (if you have any) background and exactly WHY are you doubting that a tank can fire 10 rounds per minute?

On the M1 and the Leo2 its pretty much upp to the loader how fast a tank can fire, average reload time is 4-6 seconds, my friend was down to 3.5sec in a competition (yes I know thats not combat, but that still how quick you reload).If you can get the loader to load a round ewery 4th second thats 12 rounds per minute, its when the loader starts to get tired as the ROF slows down.

Just go out and ask any tank gunner/loader/TC how fast their loader is on loading and you get your much doubted proof.

Im at work right now so I cant search for any proofs but I will try when I get home (but I doubt I can find anything as I cant remember I ever stumbled across reload times)

Are you still back in CM1 where it tooked forever to load a 88mm or what is the background for your doubts? Im pretty suprised you are turning down 2 different person that gives about same times for reloading without own arguments why?

/Chainsaw

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Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

Dont worry, I have a fiance smile.gif

The pics are lovely, but they don't do a thing to support your assertion that a "good" crew can throw an effective 120mm round down range every four or five seconds.

Linkage?

Honest, that's all I'm asking for.

Please remember that this exchange began with a vignette further up the thread in which you described a vehicle moving into a turret-exposed position, firing two aimed-rounds and then withdrawing back to turret-down, all in 6-8 seconds.

Consider the linkage to be educational in nature. smile.gif

PoE

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.... In real life a tank in defensive position, turret down, will pull up, fire 1-2 shots, back back down. So its exposed only for about 6-8 seconds.

[/QB]

This is my direct quote. See what I said? The exposure time is 6-8 seconds. In that time the tank can engage 2 targets.

Of course it take few seconds to pull up and back down again. So the whole thing might take 15-30 seconds.

It seems like you have misread what I said, misunderstood, or English is not your first language (mine is Russian)

Why dont you believe what I am telling you?

Check FM 17-12 - Tank Gunnery (M1)if you need more info. I am not about to spend my time looking up some link for you. I know that I am giving you factual data. If you dont like it - bugger off

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Originally posted by Prince of Eckmühl:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

Dont worry, I have a fiance smile.gif

The pics are lovely, but they don't do a thing to support your assertion that a "good" crew can throw an effective 120mm round down range every four or five seconds.

Linkage?

Honest, that's all I'm asking for.

Please remember that this exchange began with a vignette further up the thread in which you described a vehicle moving into a turret-exposed position, firing two aimed-rounds and then withdrawing back to turret-down, all in 6-8 seconds.

Consider the linkage to be educational in nature. smile.gif

PoE </font>

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You are not going to "hear" it going off
6-37. Antitank Signatures. Some examples of antitank signatures are:

•The swish noise of a missile launch.

•Long, thin wires from previously fired ATGM.

•The sharp crack noise of an ATGM being fired.

•A soldier dismounted with an ATGM, may be within 100 meters of a PC.

•Thermal signatures viewed through thermal optics.

− The suspension system and engine exhaust are more visible on track vehicles.

− The engine exhaust, wheels, and windshield are more visible on wheel vehicles.

− A fired ATGM leaves a distinct hot spot, more visible than the surrounding area.

− A dismounted soldier has the same characteristics as listed under soldier signatures.

Somebody forgot to read their manual :D

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Originally posted by Chainsaw:

As per FM 3-20.12 the standard for M1A1/A2 loaders is 7 seconds (5 seconds for M1/M1IP loaders) but most good ones are in the 4-5 second range, sustained.http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showthread.php?t=7201

so whats the US regulations says is 7 second as standard, but as Maj Fubar points out (he is also an ex tanker) most good ones (average I would call it) do it within 4-5 seconds.

The reload rate isn't the same as the weapons rate of fire in the situation as described. It's just an element, a variable in the overall equation.

So 2 rounds in 8 seconds as M1A1TC is stating might be optimistic, but within a 10second frame its nothing impossible.
What's rather more than problematic about the six-eight-ten-second proposition is that during the course of it all an AFV is depicted as moving out of turret-down position, coming to a full stop, acquiring a target, firing twice, and then reversing back to full-turret cover. If nothing else, time and space won't let you shoe-horn in that second shot.

My honest opinion,

PoE

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Originally posted by Huntarr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You are not going to "hear" it going off

6-37. Antitank Signatures. Some examples of antitank signatures are:

•The swish noise of a missile launch.

•Long, thin wires from previously fired ATGM.

•The sharp crack noise of an ATGM being fired.

•A soldier dismounted with an ATGM, may be within 100 meters of a PC.

•Thermal signatures viewed through thermal optics.

− The suspension system and engine exhaust are more visible on track vehicles.

− The engine exhaust, wheels, and windshield are more visible on wheel vehicles.

− A fired ATGM leaves a distinct hot spot, more visible than the surrounding area.

− A dismounted soldier has the same characteristics as listed under soldier signatures.

Somebody forgot to read their manual :D </font>

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Originally posted by Prince of Eckmühl:

What's rather more than problematic about the six-eight-ten-second proposition is that during the course of it all an AFV is depicted as moving out of turret-down position, coming to a full stop, acquiring a target, firing twice, and then reversing back to full-turret cover. If nothing else, time and space won't let you shoe-horn in that second shot.

My honest opinion,

PoE

First off, if you read thrue my time by time thing again you notice I have minus on the timescale, so my time starts from when the barrel is over the edge so it can fires and stops when its below it so it cant get hit, moving Into BP and out of BP takes ofcourse extra time and arent in the scope of the 10second rule, the 10 second rule is all about MAX TIME THAT YOU ARE ALLOWED TO SHOW YOURSELF. Normal engagement in BP lasts maybe 4-5 seconds and consists of only 1 round, but 10seconds/2 rounds are common as well.

I really feel im argueing with someone who have never been in anything tracked nor camoflauged for that matther, and from experience I know that argueing with your kind of ppl just ends in bashing my head against stupid opinions and comments so I dont ewen know if I bother continue to argue with you.

You havent added a single logic or realistic counterproof that this CAN'T be done and just waves our comments and info away as "cant be - inst logic".

Thats really poor in my opinion, you get info from a guy who have been a loader and TC himself (M1A1TC) and knows about the stuff while you just waves it away despite you seem to know nothing about tanks or how to handle one at all.

So.. my "honest opinion" is to get in there and do it yourself, you will find that combat in a IFV/Tank is fastpacing and quickreacting world, together with looong waiting times before engagements, for not talking about maintanance.

So untill you have gathered that experience I cant see why I should bother continueing this discussion where nothing I add takes any serius by you.

/Chainsaw

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Prince you just havent read anything I wrote, or Chainsaw wrote, did you? The 2 shots in 6-8sec(Optimistic)is from the time gun tube clear the berm, and then goes down again. This is called "exposure time", or atleast thats what I call it. Thats what we are talking about.

First round is already in the breach. Driver pulls up just enough for gunner get a sight picture. He gets target, fires, goes for second targer while loader reloads (3-4 seconds optimistic), kills second target. Driver starts backing down, time stops. Exposure time 6-8 sec(optimistic) Time for engagement anywhere from 15 - 30 or 45 seconds.

All this really depends if crew is trained together well, nothing breaks (I got the end-cap stuck a few times, and few misfires)

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Plus, remember that in the real world tanks have periscopes and sensor packages on those periscopes. So the tank crew already knows where the target is before they pop up and shoot.

As an aside - this is why I am not that keen on modern (for gaming purposes) As Chainsaw says, 10sec is the maximum you should be exposed. If your opponent has overwatch, then even ten seconds may be too long. Modern minatures always seemed to devolve into "I swallowed a fly" chain reactions - any one you saw, died. But the act of killing it meant that unit got spotted, and died, and so on.

Modern sensor packages & weaponry = one shot kill = fire>>manoeuvre = not a huge amount of "fun" at the CMSF scale.

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Originally posted by Huntarr:

Chain, that is why I have a smiley face at the end. It was a joke. I completely understood where he was coming from. I just find it amusing some of the dumb ass stuff that is placed in FM's by REMF's vnkvw0.gif

Ah right, missed that part Huntarr. I'll blame it on being at work and stressed smile.gif

/Chain

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Originally posted by Huntarr:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You are not going to "hear" it going off

6-37. Antitank Signatures. Some examples of antitank signatures are:

•The swish noise of a missile launch.

•Long, thin wires from previously fired ATGM.

•The sharp crack noise of an ATGM being fired.

•A soldier dismounted with an ATGM, may be within 100 meters of a PC.

•Thermal signatures viewed through thermal optics.

− The suspension system and engine exhaust are more visible on track vehicles.

− The engine exhaust, wheels, and windshield are more visible on wheel vehicles.

− A fired ATGM leaves a distinct hot spot, more visible than the surrounding area.

− A dismounted soldier has the same characteristics as listed under soldier signatures.

Somebody forgot to read their manual :D </font>

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