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Hope for better TacAI in QB


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To what extent can TacAI be fixed and improved particularly in single player quick battles given the engines design limitations; if patched or tweaked in another game or expansion, can it be as good or better than CMx1?

This 1.1 limitations theory that is going around in this forum seems a little presumptuous: how can anyone who hasn't designed the engine here say that it can't be done without so much abstraction-such as each soldier at least taking cover for himself. For one thing I've seen it in a lot of other RTS games where each soldier is acting independently -though with not as much realism complexity-and given the power of today CPUs with their mulicore processors and multi threading capabilities maybe it is possible. I want to read it from someone who actually knows the engine first hand someone at BF, maybe Steve and not someone in the forum here who is just spewing out hypothetical hubris where they don't even have the technical details.

[ August 18, 2007, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: FaxisAxis ]

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I am hoping too an answer from the developpers about that.

But what can I say is there is IMHO a limited number of TacAI issues which can be patched.

If those issues were solved before releasing the game, the whole "non existant AI" complaining both from posters and reviewers would disappear.

The few and same issues experienced lead to an exagerate conclusion about AI .

Also, some AI passive some experienced are due to a poor scenario design, and designers are fixing the scenario too.

The AI/ pathfinding issues are adressed on the next patch.

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"Also, some AI passive some experienced are due to a poor scenario design, and designers are fixing the scenario too."

Yeah, what I mean though is decent AI in quick battles where there is no scenario just a need for the unit to stay alive and defend the army it is fighting with using reasonable tactics. Scenarios are fine I just want to be able to have a quick battle now and then without having to rely on a scenario I have to create or by someone else or scripted event to trigger certain defensive behaviors-a lot of people have already requested this in this forum. I like them am hoping to one day play good quick battles independent of scenarios in SF just as in CMBB or CCAK where given what kind of tactics I use the enemy will react approprietly and at least attempt to defend or even attack my platoon in a reasonable way. I want this army to think on its own strickly in the name of self preservation.

Even when playing real time multiplayer against another human player, units need to be able to take care of themselve to some degree while temporarily left alone, as everyone is saying here you can't micro manage every unit all the time.

This is what I am asking will it ever be as good or better in quick battles in this respect as it was in CMx1.

Its a shame because a lot of forum members seem to believe this is not possible and I can't say they are wrong. I also remember Steve saying when asked about the AI that in CM that CMx2 tactics depend pretty much on a scenario were and motivated by it where as CMx1 was better at quick battles and for the most part ignorant of what it needed to do in the scenario and would just defended itself.

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Faxis,

You seem to be a bit confused about the purpose of the TacAI. The TacAI is what controls a specific unit in its most basic actions, i.e. when to fire, when to stop advancing because it isn't safe, where to face right now, etc. This seems to need improvement, and I am confident that as patches are released it will be refined more and more. However, since you are asking for this to be improved for QBs, I think you are talking about the strat AI, the one which tells the units where to move, when to move, what to attack, when to dismount, etc. This is not something that can be "improved" in the way you want it to, simply because it doesn't exist at all in the way you want it to. BFC have decided to forego trying to create plans for the AI, and have left that to the scenario designer. Period. I very much doubt they are going to rescind that decision, and I for one, don't think they should, but rather should add more options for the AI designer.

As for QBs, i think in 6 months, you will be drowning in QB maps created by the community, at least I hope so.

Cheers

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The problem is that StratAI plans for QBs are too generic, and will allways be. Plans may not match mission, objectives, force composition, or whatever.

Hence it's hard for QBs to work very well against AI ever. These didn't work very well in CMx1, won't neither in CMx2. I don't know what's the deall anyway with QBs against the AI, there are enough scenarios and a comunity which will do more (now that the designers have more control over AI, even more). QBs are itnended more for H2H play IMO.

I agree too that they will keep improving TacAI, and hopefully OperationalAI (soemthing in between the TacAI and StratAI, it's in the manual), but that overall AI should stay scripted (just add more tools for designers, like path of movement, other triggers than time, etc.), there is only so much one man can do...

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Originally posted by Yair Iny:

Faxis,

You seem to be a bit confused about the purpose of the TacAI. The TacAI is what controls a specific unit in its most basic actions, i.e. when to fire, when to stop advancing because it isn't safe, where to face right now, etc. This seems to need improvement, and I am confident that as patches are released it will be refined more and more. However, since you are asking for this to be improved for QBs, I think you are talking about the strat AI, the one which tells the units where to move, when to move, what to attack, when to dismount, etc. This is not something that can be "improved" in the way you want it to, simply because it doesn't exist at all in the way you want it to. BFC have decided to forego trying to create plans for the AI, and have left that to the scenario designer. Period. I very much doubt they are going to rescind that decision, and I for one, don't think they should, but rather should add more options for the AI designer.

As for QBs, i think in 6 months, you will be drowning in QB maps created by the community, at least I hope so.

Cheers [/quote

No, I'm not, I know the basic difference between the strategic AI and the tactical where did you get that I was confused about tac and strat AI? Behaviors such as taking cover, hiding, firing smoke, hatch down, when to fire, when to crawl, when and where to throw a grenade, flanking, running to the ditch behind, sneaking - all of these if possible or applicable, have to do with TacAI which are needed for quick battles; such things as what weapon types or units to used for a specific battle, when to deploy them, where a specific unit should be place, what points to defend, where units should be at a given time, which flags are most important to defend sending support when needed, how much fire power should be expended, all this applies to the strategic element and would be more for a scenario though from what I understand-and don't wish to believe-is that the TacAI only works well -or at all- when given a scenario.

"BFC have decided to forego trying to create plans for the AI, and have left that to the scenario designer. Period."

This the gist I got from previous posts and I am hoping this isn't the absolute case. I'm still wondering if it is at all possible to code TacAI into non-scenario quick battles, AI as good or better than say CMBB.

Its nice to be able, when you don't have enough time and have already played all the scenarios you can find, to be able to just launch a quick battle ,also if you make your own battle scenario you are going to be aware of the triggers you put in and how the script goes for the opposing side.

[ August 19, 2007, 05:25 AM: Message edited by: FaxisAxis ]

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With respect to the CMx1 Tac AI looking after it's own units, the new system isn't quite there yet. But it will be in the future. When, and to what extent, only Battlefront can tell you.

However, the old CMx1 strategic AI was very simple. Move towards the nearest VP flag or exit the board edge. Sometimes, this was enough, and it seems to have given people the idea that the AI was better than CMx2. When creating a player attack, AI defend situation with two or more AI controlled VP locations, capture one and the remaining AI forces counter-attacked, often suicidally. It also worked very well with Meeting engagemants.

But it was an extremely limited system. I much prefer the new AI scripting system. With a decent AI script, it's already a lot better than CMx1 could ever hope to be. Although it might be a while before it's all working properly, it's got fantastic potential.

Just wait a month or so and some members of the community will be uploading QB maps where you won't know what plan the AI is going to use when attacking.

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this is problem in wilderness mostly. If we consider that each man has 5-10 meters distance to man next to him when in combat (offence or defence), we are getting quite close of actual distances.

Against opponent which is using anything fragmenting things, like MBT's maincannon, this thing seems to have big importance. Not sure how important aspect this is in grandscale, but seems that it renders infantry very vulnereable to enemy fire.

Don't know is this limitation of engine... Hopefully not.

ps. Foxholes would be great too. That trench is so... vulnereable to those exploding+fragmenting things.

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