"thermobaric/enhanced-blast" proliferation?

[akd]

Article from defensetech.org:

But the thermobaric threat isn’t confined to history books. In Iraq and Afghanistan, many US lives have been saved by the protection afforded by armored patrol vehicles, body armor and prompt medical attention. Thermobarics may change that. Armored vehicles are safe only when buttoned up, as the blast from a thermobaric warhead will 'flow' through hatches or other openings.

A detailed analysis points out that "conventional countermeasures such as barriers (sandbags) and personnel amour are not effective against thermobaric weaponry."

Other research indicates that current ballistic body armor actually increases the severity of blast injuries. Similarly, current combat medicine is not geared to deal with the damage to lungs and intestines which are typical of thermobarics - "diagnosis and treatment of blast injuries may require computed tomography, which might not be readily available in the battlefield."

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001969.html

[flamingknives]

Syria reportedly has quite a few shoulder-launched thermobaric weapons, mostly the RPO-A 'Schmel'. Could be tricky.

[Battlefront.com]

Yeah, really nasty stuff. However, there are limitations to these weapons. In fact I just read an account of the Marines using thermobaric weapons in Fallujah. In one case they fired one into a house and saw massive destruction, yet the enemy was still very much alive because they were in the room next to the impact. The Marines had wrongly assumed everybody in the building was dead, and that assumption lead to the death of a Marine as they entered to sweep for bodies.

Steve

[flamingknives]

Try skimming through this thread for some good info on blast effect.

Just try and ignore what wartgamer/lewis is saying

[Goatsee]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Yeah, really nasty stuff. However, there are limitations to these weapons. In fact I just read an account of the Marines using thermobaric weapons in Fallujah. In one case they fired one into a house and saw massive destruction, yet the enemy was still very much alive because they were in the room next to the impact. The Marines had wrongly assumed everybody in the building was dead, and that assumption lead to the death of a Marine as they entered to sweep for bodies.

Steve

Hello and interesting website

The use of thermobaric small warheads (shoulder fired) is somewhat limited at this time considering the small procurements.

The anectodal story above could be related to its warhead detonation. It must be placed optimally within the building itself. many of these buildings have an internal bunker within it. Therefore, the outer walls act as spaced protection.

The improved M141 Bunker Defeat Munition (BDM)has advanced fuze technology that is probably a better solution to this MOUT type of fighting. It is best described here...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m141.htm

[flamingknives]

There's also a version of the SMAW warhead in "Novel Explosive" which means enhanced blast. This is avaialable in either rounds for the SMAW (as used by the Marines) or as SMAW-D rounds. The fusing is the same.

[Goatsee]

The NE is a thermobaric warhead.

In support of Operation Iraqi Freedom, Marine Corps Systems Command (MCSC) fielded equipment in response to Urgent Universal Need Statements which provided additional capability to I MEF. At the request of the Combat Assessment Team, MCSC provided three officers to assess UNS / legacy system items. This late April 2003 effort was the second trip supported by MCSC personnel in theatre. Reviewing the SMAW Thermobaric Round, the team reported that it "Only received reports of two shots. One unit disintegrated a large one-story masonry type building with one round from 100 meters. They were extremely impressed. However, another unit tried to breach a wall of a similar masonry building after being unsuccessful at trying to mechanically breach a door. “The round just bounced off the wall.” They were not so impressed."

... SMAW gunners became expert at determining which wall to shoot to cause the roof to collapse and crush the insurgents fortified inside interior rooms. ... Due to the lack of penetrating power of the NE round, we found that our assaultmen had to first fire a dual-purpose rocket in order to create a hole in the wall or building. This blast was immediately followed by an NE round that would incinerate the target or literally level the structure."

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/smaw-ne.htm

[flamingknives]

Mmm, as previously noted, Enhanced blast = Thermobaric

[Goatsee]

Thermobaric is 'Novel Explosive' or HIT (High Impulse Thermobaric) in Military terms. There are other enhanced-blast type technologies.

Do you have a source that NE has been combined with SMAW-D improved fuzing beyond some tests? I believe the Special Forces did testing?

[flamingknives]

http://www.talleyds.com/products/smaw.htm

Bottom of the page.

Novel Explosive (NE):

Dual purpose, dual safe, self discriminating warhead for urban destruction

[Nidan1]

What do they mean by "self discriminating"?

[Goatsee]

Thanks for the sales bullet!

I suppose an email to the company might confirm it.

[Goatsee]

Originally posted by Nidan1:

What do they mean by "self discriminating"?

I suppose its another terminology for fuzing that 'senses' target hardness and delays/modifies the explosion initiation to it.

I am assuming that flamingknives is saying as much.

[flamingknives]

That's how I read it.

[Goatsee]

You have no other information then?

Most reading I have done states that they are just supposed to go through brick walls but fail to do so. Thats why a preliminary hole is made with some other system first.

Other reports claim that if the room it enters into is small, this effects its output since the warhead is dependant on O2 from the atmosphere.

Thermobaric weapons (like the NE round) use a conventional explosive surrounded by a solid 'booster' explosive that needs oxygen (or thats my understanding).

[flamingknives]

No

[Goatsee]

I have heard rumors of a 40mm-NE round. It would be a very capable room/cave clearing device (not a building leveler). It would also deplete O2 if a rapid-fire number of rounds lands within a room (s). Combined with choking dust and possibly tear gas, a very nice way to clear buildings.

[Goatsee]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

No

The SMAW-D fuze works as follows:

Each round has a unique fuze that automatically selects the proper detonation mode to maximize warhead destructive effects on each target. If the rocket hits a soft target, such as a sand-bagged bunker, the fuze delays warhead detonation until the rocket has buried deep into the target. Warhead burial produces the signature HEDP heaving effect, which devastates these soft targets. Rocket impact on a building wall, lightly armored vehicle, or other hard target causes the fuze to detonate immediately. The warhead's high explosive charge is therefore squashed against the target, which results in enormous target holes and propels large fragments inside the vehicle or behind the wall.

It appears that the SMAW-D warhead is actually a squash head type of explosive (plastic explosive).

The NE round is an explosive that is surrounded by the thermobaric booster. These boosters are not exactly 'squashable'.

Check the video

http://warfare.ru/?catid=278&linkid=1847&video=true

If you slow frame it, its apparent that after the quick initial explosive, a great heaving effect is made afterwards.

grenade launcher

http://www.shipunov.com/eng/str/grenades/gm94.htm

[ January 01, 2006, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: Goatsee ]

[Battlefront.com]

Regarding the Fallujah use as noted above, indeed it was a SMAW. There was no specification about what type other than stating it was thermobaric. I assume it is the NE round.

Steve

[Goatsee]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

Syria reportedly has quite a few shoulder-launched thermobaric weapons, mostly the RPO-A 'Schmel'. Could be tricky.

An interesting result of a US study was that if an attacking force had these weapons, they were greatly favored over defenders. But if BOTH attacker AND defender had them, the defender is greatly favored.

I would assume that the defender could pick building targets aas marked 'death-traps'.

A good overview here

http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/dhs/infocentre/publications/journals/NoIDs/adfhealth_apr03/ADFHealth_4_1_03-06.pdf

[ January 02, 2006, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Goatsee ]

[Goatsee]

There is also improvements planned for the old LAW type system using upgraded explosives. Something like PAX-3 will allow a LAW rocket to retain/improve its role as LATW while increasing its blast so that it becomes a bunker buster of sorts.

I believe PAX-3 is just HMX type explosive that has Aluminum or other metalized explosive optimized in particle size so that it is also a thermobaric type of explosion.

So any squad with one of these can assault close enough to a building and put a rocket into a window/door/etc. When attacking armor, the increased blast/heat can further damage subsystems if the vehicle is not destroyed by the hollow charge effect.

I suppose even the M1 tank shaped charge round can also benefit from this dual capability. Developing a mortar round that can penetrate roofs and detonate within buildings could also benefit from thermobaric technology.

The bottom line is that any game that dipicts warfare between modern forces set in the near future must recognize the ongoing revolution in explosive development. Actually, the soviets had this revolution 20 years ago. So any force that can be supplied by them might have this capability.

[ January 03, 2006, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Goatsee ]

[akd]

Iraqi army soldiers and U.S. Marines with Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, enter a courtyard so they can search it for any weapon and ammunition caches that may be hidden during a sweeping patrol through Haditha, Iraq, Dec. 21, 2005. (U.S. Marine Corps photo by Cpl. Michael R. McMaugh)

[Goatsee]

Some more 40mm improvements to consider:

"The HELLHOUND 40mm Low Velocity Multi-Purpose Grenade is a fixed type ammunition designed to be fired from a 40mm Grenade Launcher M79, M203 (attached to the M16/M16A1/M16A2 rifle) or Milkor MK-1/[MGL-140]. The round consists of an A5-filled metal projectile body with a rotating band, a point-initiating-base detonating fuze with Safe and Arm technology, and a cartridge case assembly. Upon impact with the target, the firing pin is driven into the detonator, which in turn initiates the spit back charge, producing a jet which initiates the explosive train from the base forward, resulting in an armor-piercing jet of molten metal and fragmentation of the projectile body. With twice the fill amount of an M433 and a 40% increase in the shrapnel pattern and a lethal diameter out to 10 meters, the HELLHOUND will provide superior performance against both Troops in the Open and MOUT type engagements, while providing superior door-breaching capabilities."

An MEI company representative at the company's booth (SOF Week) told DefRev that the HELLHOUND's lethal radius might actually prove to be as much as 12 meters, in the final analysis. This is yet to be confirmed/verified. We'll just have to wait and see.

And thermobaric..

The DRACO 40mm Low Velocity Multi-Purpose Grenade is a fixed type ammunition designed to be fired from a 40mm Grenade Launcher M79, M203, (attached to the M16/M16A1/M16A2 rifle) or Milkor MK-1/[MGL-140]. The round consists of an Enhanced Blast Explosive (EBX)-filled metal projectile body with a rotating band, a point-initiating-base detonating fuze with Safe and Arm technology, and a cartridge case assembly. Upon impact with the target, the firing pin is driven in to the detonator, which in turn initiates the spit back charge, producing a jet which initiates the explosive train from the base forward, resulting in an armor-piercing jet of molten metal and fragment pattern and the Thermobaric effect of the EBX compound, the DRACO will provide superior performance against both Troops in the Open and MOUT type engagements."

This rear detonated round appears to combine a hollow-charge effect with a thermobaric enhanced blast.

From...

http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_MGL,,00.html?ESRC=soldiertech.nl

[Battlefront.com]

We need to be careful about what is theoretically available from contractors and what is actually in use (or projected use in 2007). There is an amazing amout of stuff out there that the makers claim is in use, or about to be used, when in fact it never makes it. The whopper of a FUBAR XM-8 program is one such example.

Steve

[flamingknives]

Then there are names to consider. According to the manufacturer, the HOUND of hellhound is an acronym for "High Order Unbelievably Nasty Device" or some such.

Can't be taking that seriously.