HESH, HE-FRAG and other ammunition natures

[flamingknives]

As much of a question as an observation:

Different HE shells explode in a variety of different ways. The blast and fagmentation pattern of an HE-frag round will be notably different to HESH, which will be different again from HEAT-MP rounds.

Is it likely that we'll see these differences, or will it all be subsumed into blast values?

Further to this, will there be (is there already?) an effect of blast on other targets when a tank is hit by an HE shell, especially a dual purpose one like HEAT or HESH?

[flamingknives]

Er, fellahs?

[roqf77]

good question. but im noway near qualified to answer it. actualy going back to the plate cracking thread. if there was to be hesh type rounds wouldnt plate cracking be importaqnt. or a similar effect as hesh rips plate more than penetrates doesnt it?

(aimed at flamingknives)

[flamingknives]

Absolutely. HESH works by spalling large chunks or armour off the reverse face. Composite or spaced armour mitigates this effect, but HESH is still very good at making very large holes in walls.

[MikeyD]

In CM1 they've already differentiated between AP with smalll HE burster charge, HE with an armor piercing nose (some 88 HE ammo), artillery HE, thin bodied HE with more bang & less frag (rockets), and more. I doubt they'd actually back-slide on this feature with the new engine.

Modern HESH - I believe - has a plastic case to allow the head to squash flat before exploding. That would mean frag would be negligable but blast would be a whopper. I can't think of anything in CM1 that fires HESH.

[flamingknives]

It all seems to break down into blast values, which are used for everything. AFAICT, fragment dispersion is not modelled other than as a circle, whereas real-world patterns are strongly influenced by angle of impact and shell type.

HESH doesn't have a plastic case, at least not that fired from tank guns. With a firing acceleration in excess of 15,000g it would get squashed before leaving the barrel. The case is thinner than a regular HE shell, so you would get less primary fragmentation. However, the greater amount and better distribution of HE means that HESH is much better at blowing holes in concrete and similar structures than its blast in open ground would suggest.

[Bigduke6]

Don't forget the HESH-like effect of a mucking great round hitting armor, not penetrating, but the shock is bad enough to do something nasty. This is the old Soviet angle saying that if you hit a TigerII with 122mm or greater on the same plate 3 or more times, even with HE, somehow you are going to bust it. That would be tres cool.

[Scipio]

What brings up the question if things like this will be modeled and/or if they are visible. In CM1x you can't see much damage on vehicels. I wonder how it will be done in CM2x.

[roqf77]

"Don't forget the HESH-like effect of a mucking great round hitting armor, not penetrating, but the shock is bad enough to do something nasty. This is the old Soviet angle saying that if you hit a TigerII with 122mm or greater on the same plate 3 or more times, even with HE, somehow you are going to bust it. That would be tres cool."

here here! i agree!

[flamingknives]

Actually, HE on tanks isn't nearly as bad as non-penetrating hits from large (122mm) AP rounds.