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CMx2: probably not for me


eichenbaum
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I didn't noticed any increase of the BFC team since the announcement of the development of CMx2. The large amount of posts of Steve made me very suspicious towards the fact if I like the new CMx2 at all. Despite some improvements of the (virtual) environment, graphics, models and mathematics; I do not believe CMx2 will impress me that much. If I add things up then I can only come to a slightly newer version of the existing CM engine. Perhaps it's too early for me to point this out this way and perhaps I should wait for the first demo; but this has been on my mind for 1/2 a year now.

Even got very disappointed for the fact that a true campaign system will not be available. I know from my own experience (OSF) that lots of people are waiting for a combat simulator with campaign system. For the fact that several people in the CM community developed campaign systems for CM in their own free time; one could learn that there maybe could be still a market for this? No?

On the other hand I want to thank BFC for not developing the game of my dreams. Because of this I have purchased a game engine and started developing the game of my dreams. I'll be busy in the next comming years... my time for CM ran out!

Nils

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eichenbaum

I agree that a campaign facility would be nice. I found stand alone scenarios against the computer AI boring, to the point that I only ever fought one scenario against the AI in CMAK, but I am still fighting PBEMs in CMBB and CMAK.

That said, BFC itself does not have to provide a campaign system. All they need to do is enable a file (txt seems to be the norm) with the unit statistics to be imported and exported at setup and at battle's end.

The CM community - of which you are a shining example - will do the rest.

That said, I am going to suspend judgement and car bombings until there is an actual CMX2 for us to evaluate.

To my mind CMX2 with PBEM at least, and a possibility of 3rd party campaigns at best, will have a lifespan equal to the CMX1 series (at least, may well be longer with the modules).

Otherwise.....????????

A.E.B

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I think that enough has been mentioned to see that not only will CMx2 look much better than CMx1, but there are some subtle changes to how units behave that will have a tremendous impact on gameplay.

To put that into some sort of context, compare the leap from CMBO to CMBB, and that came from changes within an existing game engine, not from something written from the ground up.

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Gah! Who cares about graphics. Hopefully the devs aren't going down the Total War series route, where they are so pleased with their new graphics engine that the basic underlying game gets worse.

AI, Improved QBs, Multiplayer, Campaign, OOBs, Graphics in that order for me please!

I'm dreading it being a gee-whizz graphics fest restricted to pre-designed (and flawed like most are) scenarios only. It would have a lifetime of days instead of years like the old CM.

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Eichenbaum, I understand your scepticism towards the new title, but I would refrain from putting these kind of statements on this forum, or any other for that matter until we have solid proof of what CM2x is going to be like.

You're risking a flame-war here, not with me obviously, but there are enough (mostly younger) people who will cling on to you like a tiger...

Just wait and see and give Battlefront some credit. They have performed quite well if you look at a lot of other game companies these days.

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Yes, Pheasant Plucker also spoke for me; I'm just a disappointed customer. That's all. I'm not whining at all; I'm not asking for anything either. I wrote an impression of how things are for me; its sumfink personal.

aka_tom_w, yes of coarse I'll try the demo. And probably will buy the game too... as I bought OB, BB and AK. But I think (personal) that the CD will end up on de bookshelf like CMAK did.

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Uh oh, I sense a hysteria thread in the making.

A couple of Steve's posts from the CMAK forum:

I need to wope off some of the campaign drool that is hitting the keyboards. CMx2 will not, at least at first, have some sort of "meta-campaign" system. By that I meean something that would allow multiple people to do campaigns and have their results somehow matter. I am also not talking about campaigns where larger issues, which take place outside of the battle, somehow have an affect on the next tactical battle. Maybe someday, but not with the first release and perhaps not even with the second.

Instead the campaign will be somewhere inbetween a meta-campaign and CMx1's Operations. It will also be more focused and far more "story" oriented (i.e. giving meaning to the battles you fight instead of just fighting). More on this at a later date. Just didn't want you guys having your imagining going wild and then being disapointed when we outline how it works.

And a reminder that we are not talking about having some sort of über campaign system for CMx2. It will be more along the lines of CMx1 Operations but with a lot more control over the battles in the Campaign and the inclusion of "story" driven elements to give meaning to battles. Those of you who are hoping for some sort of "take my Battalion from Normandy to Berlin" or "simulate the entire Battle of Stalingrad" are going to be disapointed if that is what you think we are doing. Almost all the reasons we had for not doing this in CMx1 are still valid for CMx2. What has changed is our ability to make a more "propper" campaign system as many had requested as opposed to the more "on the fly" type system used for CMx1's Operations.

The problem with on the fly is that we have to do a lot of coding to make things come out even remotely OK. Lots and lots of people bitched and griped about shortcomings in the Operations, and those weren't 100% on the fly either.

Many of the perceived shortcomings were a matter of opinion. Others were simply related to the difficulty of handling so many variables "correctly" each and every time. The development efforts to iron out these problems to the satisfaction of most is simply too great. Plus, it doesn't do anything for those who want a more story driven campaign, and those are (we think) the vast bulk of our audience. So the choice is rather clear for us.

Quick Battles and premade scenarios will of course remain a part of CMx2, but the story driven campaign will likey be the primary way the majority of people play the game.

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That's been my fear from the start of all these CMx2 threads of the last several years(!), that the 'perfect wargame' of the posters fantasies would be guaranteed impossible to reproduce - hell, reproduce? impossible to even approach! Whatever the new engine looks like some folks willl inevitably compare it unfavorably to the perfect game of their fantasies. Not even Pamela Anderson could stand up to scrutiny like that. :eek:

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Originally posted by MikeyD:

That's been my fear from the start of all these CMx2 threads of the last several years(!), that the 'perfect wargame' of the posters fantasies would be guaranteed impossible to reproduce - hell, reproduce? impossible to even approach! Whatever the new engine looks like some folks willl inevitably compare it unfavorably to the perfect game of their fantasies. Not even Pamela Anderson could stand up to scrutiny like that. :eek:

But given enough features - data dump of end game units, ability to edit endgame files, etc. - players would be freer to make their own version of the "perfect" game and user-made campaigns.

I still think someone with a bit of C++ experience could make a decent Windows based strategic map and rules with a minimum of effort - with all combat resolution being done by CM.

I think one could even do it in VASSAL using a manual system of moving the pieces, etc. Was tempted to try it for CMAK, but like GJK I think I took on too many projects at once.

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What seriously worries me is this crazy talk of eliminating PBEM.

Why would something so great from the last edition not be included in a future version?

If this happens, I might just stick to CMBB. I don't have time to play a game for 1-2 hours straight on TCP. I just want to sit down for 10-20 minutes, make my turn, send the turn, and go back to my work.

I'd bet that a lot of working folks can only spare the same amount of time each day to play this game.

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As I understand it there is no intention not to include PBEM, but rather a caution to promise it because they can't guarenttee it will work at this stage.

They definitely want to put it in , they are just being honest about where they currently are in development and what they can and can't definitely say they can do.

Personally I think they'll do it and unless they reallly need the cash flow, they'll delay the launch of the new game to get it right.

Peter.

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You guys are such a bunch of nancies sometimes :D Nobody can seriously tell me that they have read these posts and concluded that CMx2 is just a prettier version of CMx1. Well, unless they are about as thick as a brick. The games are more different than they are similar. Pretty much the only things that remain constant between the two are:

1. WeGo

2. Focus on Company level tactics

3. Focus on Realism

4. Simple to use UI

5. Managable level of detail

That's really it. Some higher level goals, which translate to similar games in the big picture sense, but completely different games in every other respect.

And somehow Eichenbaum missed the fact that there is a campaign with role playing elements in CMx2. But people predisposed to being disapointed might miss things like this.

In the end, we really don't care about the doubters. We had thousands of doubters before CMBO Beta Demo came out. If we had paid attention to them we might have just thrown in the towel because it was so obvious that what we were doing was crap and nobody was going to buy it.

When the demo comes out you'll either buy it or you won't. Your choice, we don't really care on an individual level. I remember one guy that was posting all the time prior to CMBO coming out. He demanded all sorts of stuff, told us he wouldn't buy the game without it, etc., and when the Demo came out he reluctantly said he thought we did a great job. Then he downloaded a cracked version of the full game (this was confirmed a number of ways) and we never heard from him again.

Honestly, customers are their own worst enemies. Thankfully, we know this and therefore it doesn't affect our work any. And that is a good thing too :D

Steve

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Oh, and another thing... we have spent 2.5 years rewriting the entire game engine from the ground up. People are entitled to an opinion that we have gone through all this effort just to make the same exact game but with prettier graphics, just as they are entitled to have the opinion that gasoline (Petrol for the non-Americans here) will be back down to $1.50 a gallon (or $0.75 a liter) in our lifetime. Opinions, however, often differ from reality ;)

Now, I am not saying that every CMx1 fan is going to want to run out and buy the first version of CMx2. I am sure many won't for one reason or another. But that's OK since we aren't counting on 100% customer retention. And with our new strategy, we might find you back again for the 2nd or 3rd release.

Steve

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We are all hoping you sell MANY new copies of CMx2 to new wargames fans that never played or owned any CMx1 generation games as well!

All of us who love GREAT wargames hope you are wildly successful at attracting new fans and making lots of NEW sales to folks who have never heard of CMBO-CMBB or CMAK!

smile.gif

-tom w

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