Stryker slat armor

[dima]

Originally posted by tiny_tanker:

The slat armor should defeat pretty much any RPG-7 from what I've been able to tell, it exploits the odd fuze placement in the warhead by crushing it, I don't think theres a work around since the fuze is internal.

LOL! Where do you get your info from? "Crushing it" ? That's how that fuse activates to begin with.

[ October 24, 2007, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: dima ]

[CptWasp]

I really think programmers should model RPG-7 better in the next patch... Yesterday I was centered from a very long distance (100 meters at least) and I was moving at high speed!!!

[tmhippo]

since this is hypothical 2008 invasion of Syria, then the US army as learned many lesson that would then be fielded to protect soldiers and vehicles. How about Reactive armor tiles they are being tested now and since this is hypothical, or how about the Trophy system. The bradley,s also are not equiped with reactive armor which is fielded right now in theater. I don't mind losing a vehicle to an RPG it just seem like EVERY ROUND FIRED is 100% effective.

[flamingknives]

dima:

I would hazard that tiny_tanker gets his reference from something like the US TRADOC Bulletin No. 3, page 19.

jBrereton:

Warrior doesn't mount an ATGM either, unless you mean the Kuwaiti Desert Warrior which also mounts a 25mm chaingun.

The Bradley has an inferior gun in terms of inherent power, but more effective munitions, better gun and fire control equipment, better sights (at the moment)

CV90 has about 15 years worth of engine, drivetrain and logistical improvements. My only concern with it is its armour, being the same weight as the Warrior, but somewhat larger.

[Guinnessman]

Well, without getting into a 'What am best IFV' debate .....my point was that if an IFV can take a hit from an AGM65 (with a 50+ kg warhead) and still have survivors, an IFV should be able to take a hit from an RPG7 (2.5-4.5 kg warhead) and have survivors, in most circumstances anyway. Even without slat armour.

[flamingknives]

I agree.

If one were to read "Dusty Warriors" there are several accounts of Warriors being hit with multiple RPG7s, the shots penetrating but not actually hitting anyone inside.

Private Beharry V.C. is a case in point.

[tiny_tanker]

Originally posted by dima:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tiny_tanker:

The slat armor should defeat pretty much any RPG-7 from what I've been able to tell, it exploits the odd fuze placement in the warhead by crushing it, I don't think theres a work around since the fuze is internal.

LOL! Where do you get your info from? "Crushing it" ? That's how that fuse activates to begin with. </font>

[SlapHappy]

Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Statisoris:

The Abrams does have a spall liner Exel, I asked a real world tanker. He didnt know if they had been in since the beggining, but they are now. Its made of thick kevlar.

They have had them from the start. The book "King of the Killing Fields," notes that the designers were concerned about stopping Soviet versions of the British HESH warhead which creates spall effects as its primary killing agent.

In any case, HEAT rounds are entirely overmodelled in the game. A Javelin missile will NOT take down a building other than a wooden shack. In the game you can bring down a skyscrapper with 2 or 3. In RL the U.S. fired 16 TOW missiles at a building during an attack on Somali warlords. They caused a lot of damage but the building was in no danger of collapse. Delta went in and cleared the room after the attack. </font>

[average]

The big fallacy is that not every RPG round knocks out IFVs and AFVs in game everytime. I often see two or three rpgs follow up, and that tends to result in very bad results for the passangers and crew.

The evil RPG29 is close to one shot effective, but I routinely see Styrkers taking two or three hits, and dismounts surriving (although less dismounts surrive at the moment then previously).

[SlapHappy]

Originally posted by SlapHappy:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Statisoris:

The Abrams does have a spall liner Exel, I asked a real world tanker. He didnt know if they had been in since the beggining, but they are now. Its made of thick kevlar.

They have had them from the start. The book "King of the Killing Fields," notes that the designers were concerned about stopping Soviet versions of the British HESH warhead which creates spall effects as its primary killing agent.

In any case, HEAT rounds are entirely overmodelled in the game. A Javelin missile will NOT take down a building other than a wooden shack. In the game you can bring down a skyscrapper with 2 or 3. In RL the U.S. fired 16 TOW missiles at a building during an attack on Somali warlords. They caused a lot of damage but the building was in no danger of collapse. Delta went in and cleared the room after the attack. </font>

[dima]

Originally posted by tiny_tanker:

Ok fine I said that a little wrong, it crushes the wires from the fuze to the igniter, since the fuze is at the front the warhead and the wires run along the side. But if you knew anything about the RPG-7's warhead that would have been plain from what I said.

I actually do know a thing or two about RPG-7 and how it is designed (that includes original russian docs).

I am sorry to inform you - there are no wires to crush. First, because there are no real wires on that grenade that run from fuse to detonator. Secondly the way this counter-measure works is by shorting the whole circuit so that the current produced by the fuse doesn't effectively reach the end detonator, not by breaking the circuit (there is a difference). Actually this is exactly what it says on page 19 of the doc than Flamingknives refered to. For more info, please check that document and diagram on how PG-7V or PG-7VM round is constructed.

A lot of people (not just on this board) get their information from sources that are just as uninformed. And then they think they are experts on the subject and continue to preach incorrect information.

As a result we get threads here by so-called "professionals" telling developers how things should really be made. Ironic, isn't it

[ October 25, 2007, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: dima ]

[molotov_billy]

Originally posted by average:

The evil RPG29 is close to one shot effective, but I routinely see Styrkers taking two or three hits, and dismounts surriving (although less dismounts surrive at the moment then previously).

See the guy above who did a test of 30? vehicles hit with single RPG's - not a single passenger survived. I wonder what you're doing differently? Or maybe the bug is with an RPG-7 and not an RPG-29.

[Guinnessman]

Originally posted by average:

The big fallacy is that not every RPG round knocks out IFVs and AFVs in game everytime. I often see two or three rpgs follow up, and that tends to result in very bad results for the passangers and crew.

The evil RPG29 is close to one shot effective, but I routinely see Strykers taking two or three hits, and dismounts surriving (although less dismounts surrive at the moment then previously).

Hmmm, I have to say that I've yet to see a Stryker walking away (or driving away) from a hit by an anti-tank munition. RPG-7, SPG-9, AT-4..... I'm gonna start referring to Strykers as Ronsons! As a result I am extremely cautious with armoured vehicles in CMSF. I wouldn't even dream of trying a Thunder Run like the 3rd Infatry Division mounted to capture Baghdad.....

I've also noticed that RPG's and AT-4's seem extremely effective as antipersonnel weapons. I lost an entire US squad to a single AT-4 hit, and the squad were lying down, as dispersed as could be, facing the direction of fire. The explosion when the missile hit was freaking massive, I thought the squad had been taken out by artillery initially. Has anyone else noticed this, or is it just me?

[ October 27, 2007, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Guinnessman ]

[tiny_tanker]

Originally posted by dima:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tiny_tanker:

Ok fine I said that a little wrong, it crushes the wires from the fuze to the igniter, since the fuze is at the front the warhead and the wires run along the side. But if you knew anything about the RPG-7's warhead that would have been plain from what I said.

I actually do know a thing or two about RPG-7 and how it is designed (that includes original russian docs).

I am sorry to inform you - there are no wires to crush. First, because there are no real wires on that grenade that run from fuse to detonator. Secondly the way this counter-measure works is by shorting the whole circuit so that the current produced by the fuse doesn't effectively reach the end detonator, not by breaking the circuit (there is a difference). Actually this is exactly what it says on page 19 of the doc than Flamingknives refered to. For more info, please check that document and diagram on how PG-7V or PG-7VM round is constructed.

A lot of people (not just on this board) get their information from sources that are just as uninformed. And then they think they are experts on the subject and continue to preach incorrect information.

As a result we get threads here by so-called "professionals" telling developers how things should really be made. Ironic, isn't it </font>

[dima]

Originally posted by tiny_tanker:

And how is that different than what I said both times? Your capability to repeat things that other people have said and make it sound like it was your idea is astounding. I've actually read the document, along with multiple other ones dealing with the RPG-7 and the effectiveness of slat armor. This is actually a topic of great interest for me as I've supported every SBCT in Iraq at some point in time and seen them deal with such a threat before. So in the end I might have simplified what happens just a little, I did so to make it more understandable think of it as a visual representation if you will so everyone will be on the same page.

Right

So first you said the detonator is crushed. Then you said some "magic" wires are being cut. When I told you you were wrong on both accounts you say you simplified it for others to understand. Who are you kidding?

Oh, right, you served in Iraq. Then, by all means, that automatically makes you a better expert on RPG-7.

I apologize!

[ October 26, 2007, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: dima ]

[MikeyD]

This technique for dealing with RPG rounds has been known since the Vietnam days and is pretty much specific to RPG fusing peculiarities. The RPG's peizo-electric crush switch is in the nose but the warhead detonator is in the tail. The 'wire' to the detonator is actually the internal warhead cone itself, which serves to conduct the electric pulse to the rear. Slat's trick is its spaced just under the warhead's diameter (3" or so). The fuze tip is *supposed* to fly between the bars without touching, the warhead's outer sheetmetal body bashes against the bars and (hopefully) dents (crushes) enough to come in contact with the separate inner body, shorting out the connection between nose and the tail. That's the theory. I also suppose a 'general-purpose' enefit might be a stout whack against the knife-edge of the bars might deform the warhead's soft copper HEAT cone enough that a plasma piercing jet wouldn't be able to develop if it did detonate. I've heard lots of stories of Strykers surviving an RPG impact but the squad commander with his head out gets himself spattered with tiny molten copper droplets.

[ October 26, 2007, 09:17 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[dima]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

This technique for dealing with RPG rounds has been known since the Vietnam days and is pretty much specific to RPG fusing peculiarities. The RPG's peizo-electric crush switch is in the nose but the warhead detonator is in the tail. The 'wire' to the detonator is actually the internal warhead cone itself, which serves to conduct the electric pulse to the rear. Slat's trick is its spaced just under the warhead's diameter (3" or so). The fuze tip is *suppose* to fly between the bars without touching, the warhead's outer sheetmatal body bashes against the bars and (hopefully) dents (crushes)enough to come in contact with the separate inner body, shorting out the connection between nose and the tail. That's the theory. I also suppose a 'general-purpos'e effect might be a stout whack against the cage might deform the warhead's soft copper HEAT cone enough that a plasma piercing jet wouldn't be able to develop. I've heard lots of stories of Strykers surviving an RPG impact but the squad commander with his head out gets himself spattered with tiny molten copper droplets.

Yep, exactly! And should the nose strike the bar itself it will cause premature detonation also pretty much defeating the round.

[MikeyD]

Unfortunately, if the nose squarely hits a bar the cage's stand-off distance isn't really enough to properly negate a HEAT jet, you'd need something like 5+(?) feet for that. You might recall it was discovered a Panzer's 'bazooka plates' actually ENHANCED a warhead's effectiveness by detonating the round at the optimal distance for forming a jet. Modern warheads have stand-off probes for the same reason, to give the HEAT jet sufficient distance to form. When the Slate cage was first designed and tested (at a breakneck pace) the guy in charge was so concerned that he sent Rumsfeldt letter BEGGING him to be careful where the vehicles were deployed. Slat has actually performed far better than expected!

[flamingknives]

According to the tradoc bulletin, at 5 foot, the penetration will be reduced to 2", from an original 10" or so. at 2 foot it is 5" - those being two break points in the graph.

Being as the Stryker is 14.5mm proof, but not 30mm proof, that puts its protection in the region of 40-60mm (although protection against HEAT jets and bullets is never the same for composite armours)

BTW, the jet isn't a plasma - it isn't even that hot - it's just travelling at silly velocities

[MiB]

Though I play as red almost 100% of the time, I do agree that the effectiveness of the RPG-7 seems to be a little ridiculous.

[M1A1TC]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

This technique for dealing with RPG rounds has been known since the Vietnam days and is pretty much specific to RPG fusing peculiarities.

How about Soviet tanks during WW2 with metal spring matresses attached to defeat panzerfausts?

[flamingknives]

How is a Panzerfaust fused?

It might be a double-skinned nose that functions when the two are crushed togerther, and the springs stop it without crushing the fuse.

Or it might not have worked at all but it made the crews feel safer.

[tiny_tanker]

Actually dima I never said I served in Iraq you made that assumption on your own, and you know what they say about those.

But enough of that, back to the topic on hand. It would make sense that they would try to utilize tandem warhead versions whenever able, not just to defeat slat armor but also the reactive armor on Bradley's. I'm not real familiar with them (they aren't prevalent in Iraq or Afghanistan so I never spent time on them) is it just a replacement for the the original fuze, in other words can you add it to any existing setup?

[MikeyD]

One reason why tandem warhead RPG rounds are rare is because they're relatively new and can't be smuggled out of old Warsaw Pact arsenals. An 'independant operator' would possibly have to spend several month's pay to get his hands on a tandem warhead round. How many Americans would be using javelin if they had to pay for each round out of their own pocket?! :eek:

When you watch the RPG guys in-game you'll notice they sometimes have a larger (90mm?) smooth-surface warhead. I think that's meant to be a later-generation Chinese(?) HEAT rocket that doesn't have the old fusing problems. Here's an old photo of a few unusual RPG rounds out of Iraq. At the top-back would be a couple small-diameter HE rounds. I at first thought the ones with arrows pointing at them might be a Russian ' thermobaric' round but it turned out to be a Chinese 'bouncing' HE frag round with a time-delay fuse. You can see in the photo that 'washer' around the nose would tend to make the round skip on striking the ground. Nasty stuff.

[ October 28, 2007, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[tiny_tanker]

I've seen that style of warhead before, I thought they might be some sort of HE. A bouncing RPG round would be nasty beyond belief. What are those things at the very top of the picture? Tandem warheads or something?