Combat Mission: Gold

[track]

I do not think that this is going to happen judging what kind of answers we got from BF when we inquired about modding France 1940 with CMAK.

What I understood from the messages they said it would be very hard to alter game content. A small company such as BF might not be able to split resources now that CM:SF has turned out to be a cycle of endless updating.

But I would definately get the pack if such was ever released. Right away and that's a promise.

[Guest]

Me too. I'm not even that big a fan of WWII. (Sacrilege, I know.) I'd buy it anyway.

As for the proposed simple changes, I think that BFC has made it pretty clear that given the current state of the CMx1 code (and more importantly, how CMBO currently exists) those sorts of things would be near impossible without massive amounts of work.

Code written for one task can be a bear to port to another (albeit very similar) task. Porting resources used can be almost as difficult. I would think that BFC would have to invest quite a bit of money and time to get that done.

Really, if they can iron out CMx2, I think most of us will be happy with any WW2 products based on the engine at the same time that they're making great games like CM:SF. This would be impossible if they spent time on CMx1.

[Rocket-Man]

Again, why does every assume that a project like this would have to be accomplished by the existing staff at Battlefront? They could do what every business in the world does when it has a money making opportunity and does not have enough staff to do the job: Hire more help, contract it out or have somebody do it on a commission basis.

[Guest]

I'm assuming they'd need to use their own money, if not their own talent pool. And contractors would need oversight and assistance, something which would have to be undertaken by Charles.

Development isn't something that is easily contracted or expanded with good results. You need a dedicated team, money, and time. My point was that BFC may not want to spend money or time to do it when they could be improving CMx2.

By the way, my assumptions are based on the fact that I am intimately familiar with the particular type of business they're in, and how it differs from every other business in the world.

Now, if you're suggesting a volunteer effort, that's something completely different. I would gladly take part in such an effort, but it would still take time and money away from CMx2, so even that is probably still out of the question.

[Michael Dorosh]

If they're serious about CM:C, though, I'd have thought such a project a natural - especially given Steve's comments about CM:BB being anathema to the market because of the lack of American coverage.

[Pinetree]

From what I understand from Steve, the CMx1 code has almost no commenting.Charles probably hasn't even touched the code in couple of years so he'd have to spend quite a bit of time just re-learning it.

[Guest]

MD -- or, they could be planning to do it using an engine they can continue to sell for several years -- CMx2 -- rather than using an engine that is well beyond the end of its life, for which the effort might take just as long as it would to start afresh.

Pinetree, yeah that's my understanding too. Not an easy task to undertake, especially if you more than likely wouldn't break even on the fruits of the effort.

[DzrtFox]

I'd pay $50-$75 just for the upgrade of CMBO, although it'd be cool to have the whole anthology on 1 disc.

The theatre in CM:SF (even when it is actually working correctly) just doesn't "do it" for me...

[EarlofWarwick]

Me too!

[Rocket-Man]

If they let somebody, whether it be another company or a community project, do it on a commission basis (with the understanding that they will get very little or no support from Battlefront), the financial risk to them is minimal.

[ August 20, 2007, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Rocket-Man ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Phillip Culliton:

MD -- or, they could be planning to do it using an engine they can continue to sell for several years -- CMx2 -- rather than using an engine that is well beyond the end of its life, for which the effort might take just as long as it would to start afresh.

Highly unlikely that CM:C and CMX2 will be compatible, given that CM:C was presumably coded with CMX1 as the intended interface. The two engines are completely different. Won't happen.

Besides, I don't see CMX2's design philosophy supporting battalion-sized MEs.

[dalem]

I think this thread is pretty illustrative of why it won't happen. We've been told over and over again that one of the main reasons CMx1 was put away and CMx2 was rolled out was that changes, even simple changes, are not easy to do in CMx1 world.

Another way to say it is that there are no real "simple changes" in CMx1. Adding a King Tiger into AK doesn't seem like a big idea to me, but what the hell do I know?

-dale

[Sgt Joch]

yes, unfortunately I don't see this project going anywhere:

1.After the time and investment in CMx2, which at this point seems to be paying off, I don't see BFC going back to CMx1.

2. BFC could, of course, offer the CMx1 code as "open source", but since any "new" CMx1 product would potentially compete with BFC CMx2 WW2 products, it would not be a wise business move.

[Cid250]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Ok, I floated this idea in a couple of other forums after reading this , thought I'd do it in this one. No harm in thinking out loud.

Any chance of quieting the CMX1 crowd with a release of CM: Gold? Basically a bundling of CM:BB and CM:AK on the same disc, as well as an upgrading of CM:BO to CM:BB/AK standards (i.e. death clock, MG modelling, etc.) No new features, just the ability to access all theatres with the same disc, get King Tigers and Pershings playable in the later CM tank modelling, the ability to put factories in Normandy or hedgerows in Russia. Basically compile all of CMX1 in the same place as a final kick at the cat and a nice farewell to the old engine. Hell, make it for download only and you don't even have to pay for disc printing or paper manuals.

With CM:C still under development, an advantage to having a CM:Gold would be that you could then interface with CM:G instead of CM:BB and reach a wider market (fans of North Africa, Italy and NW Europe wouldn't be excluded from CM:C, and the dreaded "but there are no Americans in it" problem wouldn't be a factor.)

I know I'm just a detail-obsessed grog and perhaps would be the only person crazy enough to look backwards and pay money for such a product instead of looking forward to CMX2, but I'd definitely be interested in such a thing if anyone else sees the merit.

Yes!... i'm all for it. Great Idea!.

CM1 is better than CM2 for me, so I will be more interested in a CM:Gold edition of the CMx1 engine, much more than any future release of WWII based on the CMx2 engine.

Consider the amount of graphical modeling needed to implement troops of Finland, Romanian army, or the diversity of troops and weapons... CMx2 engine will never be a match for the great amount of units that CMx1 has... because his graphical simplicity it's a much better tactical wargame.

CMx2 engine sucks for his graphical detail... too much detail to get a true complete set for WWII battles between any country involved.

[ August 20, 2007, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Cid250 ]

[Timskorn]

I did not buy CMAK or CMBB, only the original CM. I would definitely buy a bundled Gold pack though if the price was right.

The reason I never bought the two sequels is because I was not a hardcore CM fan. I enjoyed the game and got nearly a year of enjoyment out of it, but I wasn't willing to pay full price for two sequels that didn't seem to add a significant new reason to buy them. For example, the jump from Close Combat 1 to 2 was big. I loved 1 but 2 gave me a whole new list of reasons to buy it and enjoy it as the superior game.

[Lt Bull]

Originally posted by Timskorn:

I did not buy CMAK or CMBB, only the original CM. I would definitely buy a bundled Gold pack though if the price was right.

The reason I never bought the two sequels is because I was not a hardcore CM fan. I enjoyed the game and got nearly a year of enjoyment out of it, but I wasn't willing to pay full price for two sequels that didn't seem to add a significant new reason to buy them. For example, the jump from Close Combat 1 to 2 was big. I loved 1 but 2 gave me a whole new list of reasons to buy it and enjoy it as the superior game.

Very intereting Timskorn. You are exactly the kind of customer I would of expected to be otherwise interested in CMx1 but didn't buy any of the sequels for the reason you mentioned.

Would you say you didn't buy the CM sequels was primarily becasue you were "sick" of the CMx1 concept (essentially WeGo gameplay) or was it for other reasons?

Can you perhaps mention what were the top 3 or 5 things in your list of reasons for buying the CC sequel CC2?

[Herr Kruger]

I would buy it. As long as fixing the CMBB fortifications bug was in there, hehe.

[Battlefront.com]

dalem,

I think this thread is pretty illustrative of why it won't happen. We've been told over and over again that one of the main reasons CMx1 was put away and CMx2 was rolled out was that changes, even simple changes, are not easy to do in CMx1 world.

Very true. And Phillip has done an excellent job at explaining why these sorts of problems can't be easily overcome. No magic wands to wave here, sorry to say. Every minute spent on reheating CMx1 code is a minute not spent on CMx2. CMx1 is our past, CMx2 is our future. Therefore, no further development on CMx1.

Another way to say it is that there are no real "simple changes" in CMx1. Adding a King Tiger into AK doesn't seem like a big idea to me, but what the hell do I know?

This is a good example to pick up on. Sounds easy at first but there are side effects of donig this. The primary one is that there is no Rarity treatment for any of the CMBO timeframe/vehicles, which is required for CMBB/AK's code. Models and textures made in CMBO won't likely work in CMBB/AK's environment either, and that's a big problem because IIRC we changed the format between CMBO and CMBB. Also, we used very fussy tools that barely got us through CMAK's development. Data format is also different so it means reworking the vehicle data. Plus, most of CMBO's models are vastly inferior in quality to CMAK's models due to the times they were written (i.e. polygon count).

And these are the issues I can think of off the top of my head. Usually if there are one or two obvious and serious problems there are really several more than are unknown.

I can't say this strongly enough or frequently enough, apparently, becuase you guys just don't seem to get it. CMx1 is dead and will not be brought back to life. Please, just let it go... you're wasting your time.

Steve

[kgsan]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I can't say this strongly enough or frequently enough, apparently, becuase you guys just don't seem to get it. CMx1 is dead and will not be brought back to life. Please, just let it go... you're wasting your time.

Steve

Steve,

I certainly understand the above point, but is there any chance that BFC would consider a fix for what is preventing CMBB and CMAK from running properly with the new Nvidia cards? I realize these are old games and certainly BFC has no obligation to maintain them at this late date. However, for old fans who would very much like to keep playing them until CMx2 WWII is released (2008-2009?) it would be a godsend.

[ August 20, 2007, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: kgsan ]

[Prince of Eckmühl]

Originally posted by kgsan:

I certainly understand the above point, but is there any chance that BFC would consider a fix for what is preventing CMBB and CMAK from running properly with the new Nvidia cards? I realize these are old games and certainly BFC has no obligation to maintain them at this late date. However, for old fans who would very much like to keep playing them until CMx2 WWII is released (2008-2009?) it would be a godsend. [/QB]

I've CMAK installed on the computer that I'm writing this on. The video card is an 8800GTX w/WinXP and 162.18 drivers. The game runs fine here, with AA.

PoE

[Renaud]

I played a few games of CMBB this weekend, 600 point QB's, attacking with german infantry vs. +50% Russian infantry July '41. CMx1 is truly the best wargame ever made. We will probably never see a WWII tactical game of this scope, detail, accuracy and breadth again in our lifetimes.

Remains to be seen if future WW2 CMx2 module(s) can take the crown, granted on a much smaller scale, but we have to hold out hope.

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

I can't say this strongly enough or frequently enough, apparently, becuase you guys just don't seem to get it. CMx1 is dead and will not be brought back to life. Please, just let it go... you're wasting your time.

Steve

Well that should be clear enough to all and I guess there isn't a need for additional posts.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Renaud:

I played a few games of CMBB this weekend, 600 point QB's, attacking with german infantry vs. +50% Russian infantry July '41. CMx1 is truly the best wargame ever made. We will probably never see a WWII tactical game of this scope, detail, accuracy and breadth again in our lifetimes.

Remains to be seen if future WW2 CMx2 module(s) can take the crown, granted on a much smaller scale, but we have to hold out hope.

There is one game by another company that is being discussed now on their forum; it was derided as a CM-ripoff and certainly didn't have the scope of CM. I didn't like it as much as CM and removed it from my hard drive; I see they are adding more features to the second title in the series though.

I'd definitely like to see something of the same scope as CMX1; Steve admits there is a market for theatre-wide games - he just can't make money at them! Fair enough. Then again, maybe CMX2 will develop along the same lines given enough Modules for each Title. I guess only time will tell, but I wouldn't say "never".

[Rocket-Man]

Originally posted by gibsonm:

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I can't say this strongly enough or frequently enough, apparently, becuase you guys just don't seem to get it. CMx1 is dead and will not be brought back to life. Please, just let it go... you're wasting your time.

Steve

Well that should be clear enough to all and I guess there isn't a need for additional posts. </font>

[Bruce70]

A lot more businesses have gone under because they tried to do too much. "We are going to produce a game with everything that any customer has ever asked for" is a ridiculous business strategy.