Syrian recoilless at-guns/rifles

[undead reindeer cavalry]

i bet i am not the only one playing US-Syria 2007 battles in SPMBT, and i have to express my full satisfaction in using the Syrian recoilless "AT-guns". these things are mycket naughty, what comes to targets like Strykers.

the only part that is a bit unsatisfactory is the accuracy at mid+ ranges. i know that the Finnish 95mm recoilless rifle is accurate up to 700 meters, so i wonder if the Syrian recoilless "AT-gun" should be a bit more accurate at the mid ranges.

anyone with info about the Syrian recoilless & (or) opinion if it should turn out to be more accurate in CM:SF than what it is in SPMBT?

[hellfish]

I think the Syrians have the 73mm SPG-9, the 82mm and 107mm recoilless rifles. They'll probably have them mounted on UAZ/jeep type vehicles or civillian technicals like in Lebanon, Libya and Iraq. They could definately cause some damage to lighter vehicles or M-1s from the rear.

Big problem with them would be the firing signature - I'd be impressed if I saw a team able to get more than one shot off before they were killed.

[junk2drive]

URC did you try the Kiowa down scenario? If so, how did you do. I'm still trying and dieing.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

i haven't tried the Kiowa down scenario. will try it in future.

i don't think the large firing signature of recoilless rifles is a real problem, because Syrian terrain should provide good keyhole positions for these kinds of AT-weapons.

[MikeyD]

Recoilless guns were/are notoriously loud and create quite the firing signature, as undead said. That was my one gripe about the German RCCL guns in CMBB and AK. They were given bazooka sounds & signatures as though they were rocket firers. If Syria's given recoilless guns to play with in CMSF I hope BFC gives these weapons a more representative presentation this time.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

URC did you try the Kiowa down scenario? If so, how did you do. I'm still trying and dieing.

i tried it twice last night. it's a good scenario for training how to use motorized infantry in towns in SPMBT. first time i lost four Strykers (two to those damn mines) and the truck (to 60mm mortars!). the second time i got all the flags, secured the Kiowa and its crew, but lost three men.

how are you dying?

[Sergei]

Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

how are you dying?

He's dying just fine.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

har har har.

say, do you have any plans of making scenarios for Shock Force that feature Finnish UN forces?

[SSgt Viljuri]

There should be no Finnish UN forces, you fools, run!

All our forces belong to the EU or the NATO. If you don't believe, have a second check, would you?

[undead reindeer cavalry]

ok, i am still totally drunk, but here comes the "suber" edit anyway.

Viljuri, there are two realistic options for Finnish precense in Syria 2007 scenario.

first is a UN mission. we could have up to 2000 men in a UN mission, but typically we have around 1000 men in UN mission. so theoreticallu we could have about a batallion of motorized infantry in Syria in 2007.

the second one is one of the EU Battle Groups our forces belong to. i think one becomes operational in 2007. if it is the Nordic one, it would include, at best, i suppose, just one Security Company. even if it it include Special Jaegers from Utti, it wouldn't be a meaningful contribution.

so, there isn't much to model in there, what comes to Finnish troops in Syria in 2007.

[ November 11, 2005, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: undead reindeer cavalry ]

[junk2drive]

Originally posted by Sergei:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

how are you dying?

He's dying just fine. </font>

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

URC I think my problem is in not dismounting the troops soon enough. And the .50 cals suck.

i suspect you have problems with the Strykers coming from southeast, not with the group around the downed Kiowa?

scout with the operational Kiowa ahead of the Strykers. when you have located an insurgent unit, pin it down with the Strykers from around 300 meters. when the enemy unit is pinned, move closer with a Stryker until the insurgent unit attacks. pin it down again. because of pinning the insurgents have only low chances of hitting the Stryker. Strykers have low chances of hitting anything as well, but you have so many of them that it doesn't matter. once the insurgent unit has made two AT attacks, you can close in with the Strykers. if Stryker fire from 50 meters is not enough to finish the unit, disembark some infantry right next to the enemy unit and eliminate it.

the insurgent "strongpoint" at east is a tough one to deal with. i advanced towards it from west and northwest, instead of southeast. disembarked snipers were very useful across the open field in the middle of the "block" southwest of the enemy strongpoint.

the .50 cals of the Strykers are very effective near the downed Kiowa, where insurgents are closing in across open terrain.

have you noticed that you have two units capable of indirect fire? one F-16 and one of the Strykers.

[junk2drive]

have you noticed that you have two units capable of indirect fire? one F-16 and one of the Strykers.

Nope! Dooh!

I finished it with a loss of 37 men, some of them Iraqi NG.

I lost one Stryker, the Command unit. Moving west with the troops in the lead, I pounded those guys in the far west building with several Strykers MG fire and heavy sniper fire. Next turn I thought they must be suppressed and moved my CO Stryker. Boom.

After that I just moved around the Kiowa and patiently fought it out until I could move the truck in and out. My big fear was the mortar fire hitting the truck or downed Kiowa.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

Moving west with the troops in the lead, I pounded those guys in the far west building with several Strykers MG fire and heavy sniper fire. Next turn I thought they must be suppressed and moved my CO Stryker. Boom.

you need to close in already during the same turn.

the basic idea is that in SPMBT units can make only certain number of attacks per turn. once the insurgent unit has made its attacks, you can close in and fire at it from point blank.

so first suppress the enemy unit from range, move in hex by hex until it makes the AT-attack, suppress it again until it doesn't make further attacks, and then close in for a kill. if Stykers can't eliminate the unit from point blank, unload some infantry and they will. do all this during one and same turn.

My big fear was the mortar fire hitting the truck or downed Kiowa.

yeah, those 60mm mortars are scary! the F-16 is handy in taking them out. you can also take them out with one Stryker by going west and the up north and then east. you should catch two of the mortars unprotected on the field. there were almost no insurgents up north when i played the scenario.

[Peter Cairns]

Meanwhile back on topic,

Given the backflash from a RR is a dead give away, but they can take out a Stryker and are cheap, what about using them remotely.

Now I don't see the syrians doing this but there is a growing amount of off the shelf stuff that might do the trick.

1) A digital video camera, a "Firewire" lead and a lap top. Replace the basic sight with the VC and line it up from cover down a road, I don't know the practical lengt of a FW cable as i've never needed to be more than 6' from my Mac doing IMovie.

2) Similiar to the above, but with a webcam and a USB, again I don't know how long a USB lead can be either.

Can you get Bluetooth Webcams yet, if so whats their range, and can stryker units jam bluetooth.

3) Like both the above but using a pair of video capable mobile phones, although you'd have to rig it so that you could fire the RR by sending a text.

Accuracy wouldn't be great but if it was a level shot down a road or along a wall, it could work.

The whole issue is about the use of Highsteet Tech, as opposed to High Tech. You could probably rig up a decent antitank mine using a Kids metal detector from ToyRus.

Peter.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

i don't think the large firing signature is such a problem. i don't know how Syrians do things, but at least in the FDF it's stressed that recoilless rifles are employed in prepared keyhole positions. so for example you don't position a recoilless rifle at a treeline, but instead relatively deep within the trees. you then cut down trees in order to create a narrow keyhole position. the firing signature doesn't matter because only the target can shoot at you. and at least the Finnish recoilless rifle is relatively mobile, so you can change positions as needed.

BTW there are AT mines that hit from sides.

[SSgt Viljuri]

Well, "Mustis" are weapons of the past. Just like 75Paks.

Besides, the German-Dutch-Finnish ERRF is in a stand-by status in 2007, not the miserable Scandinavian surrendering one, URC...

[undead reindeer cavalry]

yes, you're right, it's the German-Dutch-Finnish one.

i think Mustis will be around still for a decade or two.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

i think Mustis will be around still for a decade or two.

While surely so (they probably even kept the skeleton of Mannerheim in a closet in the GHQ for decades in the case he'd be needed again), I doubt they'll be taken out of naphthalene again... not even the Pärnu Boy Scouts would accept them. I for sure wouldn't go to rehearse unless some top brass, a General or something, came to promise me personally that those are a thing of the past and nowadays we have frickin AT lasers attached on heads.

[SSgt Viljuri]

Sergei wrote:

(snips) (they probably even kept the skeleton of Mannerheim in a closet in the GHQ for decades in the case he'd be needed again),

I think this is a common misconception.

Actually A.F Airo was our secret asset, who would have been called for duty as our C-in-C, way up to the 1960s...

Now there's an interesting history tidbit, If you ever encouter one.

(And that hidden skeleton wasn't Mannerheim's, it was his horse's)

[undead reindeer cavalry]

people are still trained on Mustis. they won't get to the naphthalene status for a decade or two.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

people are still trained on Mustis. they won't get to the naphthalene status for a decade or two.

Really? Are you 100% positive on this? I thought they were pulled from active use in 2000... but maybe that was just PKarPr.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Really? Are you 100% positive on this? I thought they were pulled from active use in 2000... but maybe that was just PKarPr.

yes, i am sure they are still used at some units.

[SSgt Viljuri]

Can't be. PKarPr is surely the last to dismantle obsolete weapons systems in the whole FDF... *sigh*

You must be talking about some local troops (units not officially part of FDF's organisation). You know, even local frontier jaeger companies ( "paikalliset sissikomppaniat", ei tule käyttää termiä "guerilla", PE:n suositus) are part of the FDF's wartime organisation, so we go pretty to close to civilian defence or somefink...

I mean those "kohdesuoja" (second or tertiary) reserve units, which are largerly consisted of men aged 40+ (voluntary), who are not that much interested of military but rather any excuse to flee from their wifes...

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by SSgt Viljuri:

Can't be. PKarPr is surely the last to dismantle obsolete weapons systems in the whole FDF... *sigh*

you are mixing training and wartime OOB & TOE. at some units conscripts are still trained to use Musti. what this means for wartime things is a whole another thing.

EDIT: removed some unnecessary information.

[ November 16, 2005, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: undead reindeer cavalry ]