(CM:SF = optional RTS ) Had your Coffee yet?? check this out major news of the day..

[Mord]

Originally posted by mbtanker:

As long as realtime is only an option and WeGo is fully available I am happy.

Stuff, stuff and a bunch more stuff and so on.....

I totally agree and it's always been my grand stand on why WEGO is the best of both worlds. Man, if it wasn't for the rewind button I'd have missed some of the coolest moments I've ever experienced in computer gaming. I can't tell you how many times I've sat and watched one tiny kickass moment in that 60 second turn, over and over and over from all angles....even now the game engine still does something to make me go "WOOOOW!" It's part of what makes CM so special in my book.

Mord.

[Battlefront.com]

You simply can't be in both places at once to see a tank pop into view, kill your tank, and pop out.

Which is where the TacAI comes into play. Without it even WeGo would be unplayable. Sure, you could issue orders in CMx1 without any pressure to hurry up, but once you hit GO! your unit's were in the hands of the TacAI. This will be true for CMx2 for both RT and WG modes.

When I play a CMx1 game I find that many turns I don't do squat. I observe, tweak a few things, and what not. I spend less time actually doing something than the 60 seconds the turn takes to resolve. This is especially true when on the defensive. In fact, this has been a complaint of many a CMer and one of the prime reasons why some people hate PBEM (taking 2 weeks to do nothing isn't very exciting ). So we must keep in mind that RT is actually an improvement in for such situations.

In general the pace of CMx2 game will be slower than in CMx1. This means if you could do 1 minute's worth of CMx1 orders in 2 minutes (I liked the turn time limit option, personally) you'll likely be able to do the same number of Commands in the same amount of time (or less). This will now chew up 2 minutes, which isn't a bad thing. It could perhaps chew up 20 minutes in some real life cases!

The RT option will also enforce discipline on gamers to make only necessary decisions, with the realism of time pressure, to secure victory. Players who want to agonize over every little detail, unrealistically coordinate forces, come up with "gamey" tactical moves, etc. will find themselves without the time to do so. I think that is also a good thing.

Obviously many of you won't see any of this as good, and therefore will play in WeGo mode. No problem as far as I am concerned. Each to his own. Personally, I think I will play a fair number of games in each mode. For multi-player I am sure I'll prefer RT because I hate waiting for the other guy to finish up. Why do you think there is a turn timer option in CMx1 in the first place?

Steve

[aka_tom_w]

For multi-player I am sure I'll prefer RT because I hate waiting for the other guy to finish up. Why do you think there is a turn timer option in CMx1 in the first place?

Steve

Excellent!

Thats why we all like buying your games so much!!!

"You GET it!"

I hate waiting for the "other guy" to finish up as well.

I think the new RealTime option will seperate the IronMen from the "weanies" IMHO BUT that's JUST me!

Thanks again!

sounds great so far!

-tom w

[Bruce70]

A suggestion for RT (and possibly WeGo) play:

- Every second of real time you accumulate a number of command points.

- Every time you issue an order you use up command points. The more complex the order the more points you use.

I haven't thought this through (that's what the forum's for ), but it seems to me that this might:

- be a way deal with players pausing every second

- be a viable alternative or complement to command delays.

- make it impossible to micromanage every unit all the time, but possible to micromanage some of the units all the time or all the units some of the time.

I beleive a system like this was used in some XXXX game, but I can't remember which one...

[Tarquelne]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You simply can't be in both places at once to see a tank pop into view, kill your tank, and pop out.

Which is where the TacAI comes into play. Without it even WeGo would be unplayable. Sure, you could issue orders in CMx1 without any pressure to hurry up, but once you hit GO! your unit's were in the hands of the TacAI.</font>

[Tero]

Have you guys raided the old SSI codes form the pre-SP C64 (and I guess AppleII) games ?

Those games allowed continuous play. Orders could be issued by hitting the space key and the game would stop at the start of the next pulse. When the orders were given the game would chunk along until the time limit/victory conditions were met or the space key was hit again.

[Battlefront.com]

Bruce,

That sort of stuff has been discussed before. None of that sort of stuff is planned for CMx2. It's artificial and "gamey". It's the sort of stuff that was required for turnbased games to simulate realtime issues having to do with communications. With CMx2's realistic C&C network that's not necessary. The realism issues are already dealt with using other means.

Tarquelne,

With Real Time we might (optionally) trade the hive-like communal initiative of WEGO for occasional lapses of action, happening when the player is paying attention to area A when there are events in area B needing that attention.

I both expect this and hope for it. One thing that CMx1 does wrong is simulate combat intensity in the correct context of time. Turn based systems allow for efficient use of resources to a degree impossible on a real battlefield. Why? Because the God and Borg effects allow the player way too much information and then offers him all the time in the world to perfect a plan and to make sure every unit designated for that plan is perfectly assigned a role. And if the role can't be assigned? Well, then, the player has all the time in the world to redo his entire plan, including orders to dozens of units, to accomodate whatever little ripple caused the player to change his mind. The result is a planning and execution process that might happen ONCE a day in the real world happening (possilby) many times every 60 seconds of simulated real world time in the game setting.

In RealTime there will be none of this because the time won't be available. In CMx2 the God and Borg effects are also reduced, and therefore the player is less likely to know enough that he feels comfortable comitting everything at one time, or even capable of comitting everything at one time.

This will, of course, frustrate the heck out of some players. They simply won't like losing control of the minute by minute functioning of their units. That's OK because WeGo is still a part of the game system

A notification system - even just little icons showing offscreen contacts - could help a lot, though. I looked through the FAQ thingy the other day and didn't see any mention of something like that, though.

There was some mention of this in the CGM article that just came out. The US player, at least, will have this sort of information displayed in his RPDA (Rugged Personal Digital Assistant). In a perfect world all units in a US digital unit, such as Stryker, know exactly what other units and higher intel assets know as soon as it is know. In reality that isn't the case most of the time. You can opt to go with the realistic/imperfect portrayal, or the theoretically perfect one. Syrian forces will have these options available too, as well as "none" option since in practice they don't have this sort of thing to draw on.

Tero,

Those games allowed continuous play. Orders could be issued by hitting the space key and the game would stop at the start of the next pulse. When the orders were given the game would chunk along until the time limit/victory conditions were met or the space key was hit again.

Ah yes, the precursors to RealTime. All these games did were automatically "end turn" at regular intervals. When you hit the spacebar all you were doing was interrupting the process of starting the next turn.

The first true RealTime wargame I ever played was Chris Crawford's "Eastern Front". The second was probably "Ancient Art of War" by Brøderbund. Next after that... let's see, probably Crawford's "Patton vs. Rommel." All three of these games were single player only, BTW. I'm pretty sure Eastern Front was only playable from the Axis side.

Steve

[juan_gigante]

I know that in many current RTS games there is a voice that will go "Your troops are under attack!!" in a strangely low voice whenever your troops make contact without you looking at them, and a little thingy will flash on the map so you can find them quick like and handle things. That would help solve that problem, though it might be a wee bit unrealistic.

[GreenAsJade]

Originally posted by M1A1TankCommander:

I would never play it RTS style. The reason is why I love CM games is that they are turn-based. I like taking my time and use strategy. RTS games seem to be a click-fest, to see who clicks faster. That is lame

I was waiting for this one. It proves (or at least is another example of) my theory: whenever you offer or suggest an *option*, someone will say "I don't want that"

If it's an *option* then who cares that you don't want it? It only matters if it makes it worse than it would otherwise be for you...

[Dschugaschwili]

So, does this mean that you can't issue orders in a RT game when it is paused? If you can, we need a way of getting around the X-Com Apoc/Baldurs Gate method of just pausing the game all the time when the action starts and only have it run fractions of a second at a time until the smoke clears. Enforcing a certain (configurable?) minimum of time before the next pause can be invoked could help in that case.

Dschugaschwili

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by juan_gigante:

I know that in many current RTS games there is a voice that will go "Your troops are under attack!!" in a strangely low voice whenever your troops make contact without you looking at them, and a little thingy will flash on the map so you can find them quick like and handle things. That would help solve that problem, though it might be a wee bit unrealistic.

The same effect can he sort of accomplished in CMx1 by turning warning labels ON. (But you don't get the voice.)

When the game starts turn on all labels and troops will have those little words pop up over their heads as soon as they take fire or are suppressed IIRC.

I would hope some similiar feedback system or game mechanism would alert the player when their units are under attack would somehow be available in CM:SF. Something subtle and appropriate to the interface and the game.

-tom w

[Other Means]

In non-RT mode can we rewind the action?

Sorry if this has been stated but I'm under the weather today.

[Thomm]

Yes, we can!

[Thomm]

Steve, can you, by the way, detail, why a (limited) replay option is not possible for SOLO real time playing, please?!

Is it for technical/performance reasons, or gameplay reasons?!

Best regards,

Thomm

[Battlefront.com]

Is it for technical/performance reasons, or gameplay reasons?!

Both. I'm not rulling it out forever, but it certainly isn't something we are planning on adding.

Steve

[mbtanker]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You simply can't be in both places at once to see a tank pop into view, kill your tank, and pop out.

Which is where the TacAI comes into play. Without it even WeGo would be unplayable. </font>

[mbtanker]

{{{Well, then, the player has all the time in the world to redo his entire plan, including orders to dozens of units, to accomodate whatever little ripple caused the player to change his mind. The result is a planning and execution process that might happen ONCE a day in the real world happening (possilby) many times every 60 seconds of simulated real world time in the game setting.

In RealTime there will be none of this because the time won't be available.}}}

True but don't fall into the trap of thinking that is more realistic or better. First off many players LIKE having lots of control. It is a game afterall. Secondly, and more important, because a player is forced to take on so many different roles realtime forces artificial limitations. As a real company commander I don't have the direct control of units that I do in the game but I also don't need to make a lot of the decisions I need to make in the game. Not to mention jumping roles is part of the fun of the game. Until AI is as good as a human it is going to do dumb things. That gets very frustrating in a game. Realtime only exacerbates those issues.

[aka_tom_w]

All this talk of RealTime Company Commander this and Company Commander that sort of makes me pine for comments from Master Grog Dorosh!

Not a word from him lately

No comments on the whole RealTime option in CM:SF news?

Anybody have any idea where he went?

Mr. Dorosh, where are you?

-tom w

[mazex]

Well, regarding real time I find the only way of making it realistic would be the Co-Op multiplayer game that Steve mentioned. Damn thee! I've been thinking of it more and more and it would be awsome. You can't just mention a thing like that and then say that it MAY come in one of the later CMx2 games!

Just think of it... A 26 player server (Yes, Moores law and distibuted processing rules!) with two sides consisting of the following (3x3x3 organization for simplicity):

One battalion commander that can only issue orders to the company commanders. He can also order/assign "off map artillery" and CAS support and let spotters from one of the subordinate units direct it. He may also distribute battallion level mortars, recon etc to subordinate company commanders. He should only see the location of the companies and to some extent the platoons when necessary.

Three company commanders that can assign orders to the platoon leaders. They can also use or distribute company level assets like mortars and medical evac, and may also distribute company level snipers etc to subordinate platoons.

Nine platoon commanders do the "real work" - and may only see their own squads and the general location of higher level units. If another unit reports the location of enemy units to the company commander he may pass this information to the other platoon leaders, otherwise they only see enemys known by their own squads. They may receive additional assets from the company to control if available.

The squads or indivdual vehicles are not player controlled but are controlled my the platoon leaders (and the TacAI!).

Ahh, so sweet and the RTS problem is gone! As the lower level units on different parts of the maps fight "their own war" and the higher level commander only see the big picture!

Steve - come on, how hard can it be? (yes, I'm a programmer myself and that was a joke )

/Mazex

[ November 08, 2005, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: mazex ]

[mazex]

I went out and did the dishes (best time to think) and realized another thing regarding the Multiplayer Co-Op game... Can anyone imagine the sales potential to military schools around the world? To sweeten the deal: Add a Battlefield 2 FPS-module for the privates to use on the lowest level and the whole battalion may have a "field practice" in the computer hall...

/Mazex

[Tarquelne]

Lapses:

I both expect this and hope for it.

Don't get me wrong - I think the occasional lapses thing is more realistic than "Borging," and not necessarily unrealistic at all. But there will be times when it isn't realistic either: If there's inaction only because the player is currently wearing the hat of the commander of a different group and isn't aware there's a job for another one of the player's hats, or doesn't have time to don it.

Hmm... imagine a Co-play game where there are not only realistic chain-of-command type delays built into the sharing of information, but also the players aren't allowed to communicate at all. A company commander with a sudden need for help would just have to hope his commander will, on his own initiative and for no particular reason, look in on his situation before it's too late.

The "zip your POV around the map" ability in CM makes looking around easy. But the larger or more intense the scenario played RT, the less useful that ability is for acquiring information in a timely manner. At some point players will start unrealistically missing information, information that a real commander would gain via units submitting reports.

Notification system:

There was some mention of this in the CGM article that just came out.

Super. Given that, the scale of CM:SF and some other factors (including the TacAI) I think this lack-of-information/time thing will be more nuisance than flaw, and certainly it won't be of "Borg thinking" proportions. The game won't often move so quickly that you won't be able to check in with each group as about as fast - or faster - than it could realistically get "actionable" messages to you. (With a little luck the audible signals of something happening - gunfire, men running around yelling - will be enough.)

OTOH, checking up on everyone all over the map just to confirm there's nothing happening doesn't sound very fun. Primarily that could just be taken as a sign that the map should be played WEGO. But it'd be nice if you could concentrate on the action, secure in the knowledge that if something comes up the TacAI will let you know there's now something to see elsewhere. As tom_w said, something "subtle and appropriate."

When something significant comes up I assume real staff officers/messengers don't just slip the report in at the bottom of an "In" box, but also somehow call attention to it. New contact icons on the RPDA in SF might flash a couple of times, for example. Or a formation that's quickly plunged in morale/cohesion might, after the appropriate delay, have it's ID appear in red for a moment somewhere in the UI. (Alternatively, a simulated "Oh god, oh god, we're all going to die!" radio call has it's own attractions.)

[ November 08, 2005, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Tarquelne ]

[mbtanker]

{{{But it'd be nice if you could concentrate on the action, secure in the knowledge that if something comes up the TacAI will let you know there's now something to see elsewhere.}}}

But what do you do if two or three things come up? You have to ignore all but one because you cannot be in more than one place at a time. I don't see how any level of alerting helps. Yes, maybe the TacAI will handle the other situation just fine but is that fun? Part of the reason to play the game is to play the game.

I admit realtime adds urgency and excitement all its own but I think it is misplaced in a detailed wargame.

I also think it would be fun on occasion to say 'Ok I'm now the company commander and I'm going to let the TacAI make the platoon decisions for me good or bad.' But I wouldn't want to be essentially forced into that situation all the time just because realtime is forcing me to move on.

[aka_tom_w]

Well you can always play WeGo until you are comfortable with RealTime.

and you can always just play smallish little scenario's in RealTime until you get good at it.

Younger players who are faster (twitch) may adapt to Realtime quiet quickly but old and more experienced players should still be able to reply on solid tactics, experience and good strategy to overcome the "twitch" of fast reacting younger players.

But you watch I would guess you might see some older players get FAST in RealTIme with practice and learn how to the MOST out of the game, your units, and the NEW interface, with the least efforst by playing and working the game quickly and efficiently in RealTime.

You just watch

-tom w

[Tarquelne]

I don't see how any level of alerting helps.

True, if you've got several things happening at once needing your attention it just lets you know there's more happening than you can handle.

But if the events are spaced out more you won't have to waste time checking up where nothing's happening. ("Street with red house.... still nothing. Street with factory... still nothing... now back to the fun...") Alternatively, you could settle down to give a string of commands to one group without risking remaining uninformed about major developments around another group.

I don't think it's a "fix" for RT problems, but I think it's likely to be helpful. I dunno... it could be that the pace of CM:SF will generally be so slow, and the in-game IT so high, that notifications would just be redundant. And with a sufficiently small scenario we may even have much of the "borg" problem even in RT...

Originally posted by aka_tom_w:

[QB] Well you can always play WeGo until you are comfortable with RealTime.

and you can always just play smallish little scenario's in RealTime until you get good at it.

I think that's a really important point. There's nothing that's going to completely "fix" playing a detailed military simulation as a single-player game.

Well, nothing short of a really good AI.

Things like notifications may reduce or eliminate some problems, while possibly introducing others. But compared to the co-ordination and information allowed by WEGO, I think the RT problems will usually be pretty minor. For scenarios where RT would be worse than WEGO, you can use WEGO.

[Bruce70]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Bruce,

That sort of stuff has been discussed before. None of that sort of stuff is planned for CMx2. It's artificial and "gamey". It's the sort of stuff that was required for turnbased games to simulate realtime issues having to do with communications. With CMx2's realistic C&C network that's not necessary. The realism issues are already dealt with using other means.

Some would argue that being able to pause and spend an infinite amount of time positioning every unit in minute detail is "artificial and gamey".

Now don't get me wrong, I think it is *essential* that you should be allowed to pause. Why? Because you do not have the same situational awareness and natural environment in which to give orders, and because you have to give additional orders that otherwise you would not have to because the AI can't handle all the situations that a real subordinate could.

However, I see nothing artificial and gamey about setting some limits on the amount of micromanagent that a player can engage in. I'm sorry I missed the earlier discussion, could you please point me in the right direction (I woudln't even know what to search for) or just give me the highlights.

Anyway, if the new C&C network solves this potential problem, then that's fine by me. Just because I think my idea would be an elegant solution, doesn't mean that I think it would be the only elegant solution.