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Will vehicles stricly follow a plotted waypoint one of these days?


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Well just a long long title to make the readers pay attention to the thread. :Dtongue.gif

But I mostly seek from BFC (i.e Steve ) an answer about these issues.

While an intrusive pathfinding is understandable for moving infantry (otherwise they would act like several robots following the same line :rolleyes: ) , it is less so for vehicles ;

It would be far clearer for the player to see his units follow one waypoint on a line instead of a chess like L shaped move.

No AI controlled pathfinding, searching for hull down position or flank manoeuver : it's the task of the player. Otherwise, what does remain in the gameplay?

So, do you plan to allow a vehicle follow a linear path, whatever the angle is, or does the 8*8 grid action spot design make this impossible?

Another questions :

*Will a collision detection (even a simple CMX1 vehicle pushing style) be included in future patches?

*Do you plan to change LOS fading with trees? (Right now a unit can see through 200 metres of dense wood, while the player can't see anything from its camera! )

*Will some individual soldiers in a squad be able to return fire while on Quick/Fast move? (Now an entire squad can be wipped out without any soldier can return fire because they have a fast order )

*Will the AI be able to independently call in artillery support without plannig it in scenario design?

You are making a great job in improving the game.

Keep going.

Thanks in advance.

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NDA precludes me from giving you more than "optimistic speculation" since I am using 1.04. If you would like me to use search and get you several answers from Steve specifically than I will simply do a recent posting of all his comments to date. Anyone can do this just click his name and look at his recent posts. Here is a listing for you to view.

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=recent_user_posts;u=00000042

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Originally posted by thewood:

Sure

edit: I thought you were going to post the answers. Where in the thousands of posts were those answers?

I can't find any answer to those questions. All that I've found is related with the bugs.

I can understand that bugs are now the first and only task, to be done. It's the logical path to follow.

When this game become 100% bug free, will be the time to take a look about the fact that the worst user evaluations in the game reviews (if you read them closely) aren't related with bugs exactly. People knows that bugs will be fixed eventually, sooner or later... that isn't the problem that worries to many of those unsatisfied customers.

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I read some of them closely (the crappiest is Tom Chick's review from what I read)

And I can dare say if the game was released with all the issues fixed (including AI/ pathfindings, LOS, performance etc ), there would be NO review under 5. The rest the reviewers are complaining about are either :

*Less flexible QB system ( that's true, and BFC are about to change this in next modules)

*Crappy theatre (cant help them in this case)

*Bad UI (Not optimal, but not something you can't get used to. Starcraft UI is not any better (Yeah I know it's an old game ;) ) )

But the most recurring complaint comes from the bug, which let the reviewer conclude the game is unplayable.

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Yes, bugs were the fundamental critic by reviewers. Other problems like TacAI and pathfinding, are not cause of fundamental changes in the game, well, they are cause due to better resolution (1:1, 8x8m grid, etc.), but that does not mean in the future these things can be tuned and improved to function to an optimal level. The UI, I don't find it being criticized so much in reviews in reality.

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Originally posted by Huntarr:

NDA precludes me from giving you more than "optimistic speculation" since I am using 1.04. If you would like me to use search and get you several answers from Steve specifically than I will simply do a recent posting of all his comments to date. Anyone can do this just click his name and look at his recent posts. Here is a listing for you to view.

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=recent_user_posts;u=00000042

You are giving voodoo advice and waste people's time. Steve did not give direct answers to any of the original questions, and yes I recently went through his post history.

It's great beta testers are optimistic about 1.04 but then it sounds 1:1 the same as before 1.03...

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Regarding pathfinding...

We're going to probably be playing around with this for a long time to come. However, v1.04 will fix a few of the more outstanding problems. Not all, though.

The problem with the "L" moves that sometimes happens has to do with pathfinding itself, not the grid. The problem is that every possible angle that is checked requires an exponential amount of projecting outcomes, therefore the number of possible paths is necessarily limited instead of unlimited. This means that sometimes, and I stress sometimes, the unit will have to "round" to the nearest departure angle and then course correct after it starts moving.

In theory it is easily fixed by increasing the amount of possible directions the pathfinder can explore, but the exponential nature of these complex equations means a noticable hit on CPU and RAM. We'll see what can be done, though, because although it happens a lot less than it used to, I agree it happens more often than we'd like. Fortunately it usually doesn't matter in terms of gameplay other than the visuals.

Other answers...

*Will a collision detection (even a simple CMX1 vehicle pushing style) be included in future patches?
There is collision detection in there now, just not as complete as it needs to be. Yes, this will be improved over time. It's a matter of having the programming time to do it, nothing more than that.

*Do you plan to change LOS fading with trees? (Right now a unit can see through 200 metres of dense wood, while the player can't see anything from its camera! )
I'm unaware of a problem like this so I can't comment. Sounds like a possible bug if anything.

*Will some individual soldiers in a squad be able to return fire while on Quick/Fast move? (Now an entire squad can be wipped out without any soldier can return fire because they have a fast order )
I don't know, however soldiers actually moving during a FAST Command shouldn't be able to return fire. This is an all out run, and firing from such a move is not possible. Quick is a different matter.

*Will the AI be able to independently call in artillery support without plannig it in scenario design?
Yes, it will.

Steve

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Originally posted by Darkmath:

Do you plan to change LOS fading with trees? (Right now a unit can see through 200 metres of dense wood, while the player can't see anything from its camera!

A related problem seems to me that we cannot move the camera low enough to look under the canopies of small trees, that is, the camera is in the foliage while the soldiers are beneath.

Best regards,

Thomm

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A related problem seems to me that we cannot move the camera low enough to look under the canopies of small trees, that is, the camera is in the foliage while the soldiers are beneath.
Nor is the terrain under the trees distinguished in any way, as in previous titles. Have you tried setting up a tree line having pushed alt-t? Impossible, IMO.

[ September 18, 2007, 05:58 AM: Message edited by: Childress ]

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Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Regarding pathfinding...

The problem with the "L" moves that sometimes happens has to do with pathfinding itself, not the grid. The problem is that every possible angle that is checked requires an exponential amount of projecting outcomes, therefore the number of possible paths is necessarily limited instead of unlimited. This means that sometimes, and I stress sometimes, the unit will have to "round" to the nearest departure angle and then course correct after it starts moving.

In theory it is easily fixed by increasing the amount of possible directions the pathfinder can explore, but the exponential nature of these complex equations means a noticable hit on CPU and RAM. We'll see what can be done, though, because although it happens a lot less than it used to, I agree it happens more often than we'd like. Fortunately it usually doesn't matter in terms of gameplay other than the visuals.

Steve

I can almost accept this, except that there is one thing that can be done that will NOT cause an exponential increase in CPU/RAM requirments:

Simply calculate the angle for the direct path and check to see if that path is clear. If it is, move at that angle. If it's not, fall back to the current algorithm. I think this would be an acceptable solution for almost everybody as it is pathfinding in completely open environments where the "L" moves are most noticeable.

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I repeat my earlier point that if there are no obstacles between the unit and the waypoint, the unit should travel to the assigned waypoint in a straight line. Without any pathfinding algorithms. Those should only come into play when there is an obstacle that has to be evaded.

Should save CPU time too when you don't use the engine to calculate its own path for every waypoint.

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Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Fortunately it usually doesn't matter in terms of gameplay other than the visuals.

WTF?

Steve, what else is there other than the visuals? I'm speaking of accuracy, not quality, here. How else are your users supposed to get and process their gameplay information?

This sentence kinda throws me for a loop.

-dale

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Thanks you very much for spending time to write a reply, Steve. I hope it will be helpful for other people worried about the mentionned issues.

As for the trees, never mind... We can have foliage combination which blocks LOS after 40 metres.

But being able to see through 200 metres of tall pines seems a bit odd. ;)

Command queueing improved for WEGO, no more L shaped movement on large open environment, and infantry being able to shoot while on a quick move ... A dream that may come true? ;)

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