Immersion and gaming

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

The good news for you guys is we have 10 years of experience filtering through this sort of stuff. I think most of you would agree we've done a really good job incorporating feedback in the past, so the confidence should be there for us being able to selectively improve the game in a way that people feel good about. Certainly that is true with the patches we've released thus far.

i think you are one of the best guys out there to get it right, so perhaps CMx2 will come to prove itself worthy.

Having said that... we know that no matter what we do we'll not get some CMx1 customers to return to CMx2, just like we knew that a lot of Steel Panthers and Close Combat guys wouldn't make the switch to CMx1. We can't be all things to all people so, by definition, some won't want to come along for the ride. That should be OK with everybody.

i never enjoyed Close Combat series. i played CMBO demo a couple of times but never bought it. i didn't enjoy playing EYSA. i played TOW demo a couple of times but never bought it.

i switched to Steel Panthers when it came out and i still play it (both WW2 & modern, especially the latter). i switched to CMBB when it came out and i still play it. i still occasionally play ancient games like Panzergrenadier, Kampfgruppe etc on emulators.

sadly CMSF belongs to the first group of games at the moment. all those games share specific game play feel, tho CMBO is a borderline case.

[Mannheim Tanker]

Originally posted by abneo3sierra:

I basically agree with your sentiment, however, found it amusing coming from someone with over 5000 posts, many of which I have just seen were in discussions much like the one you are condemning here.

Mmmm, if you take another look you'll see that those non-game related posts you're referring to were mostly in the General Forum. Most of my comments in the CMBO, CMBB, etc. forums did actually pertain to the game. That's a very clear distinction.

One would think that Steve would be spending more time tightening up his game than engaging in endless debates with a couple of posters on unrelated matters in the Game forum. That's the gyst of where I was coming from in that post.

As for Steve's comment re: my previous 5000+ posts (made over a period of over 8 years, BTW)...the difference back in the ol' days is that the exchanges between him and other posters did not come across so much as personal disputes. That's the kind of crap that belongs in an email exchange, not on a public forum where you're representing the company. Again, just my opinion. I have no emotional involvement in this argument, and I was just making an honest point.

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by c3k:

I'm trying to enjoy CMSF. I find that, despite the very many technical, artistic, and thought-provoking achievements in CMSF, I am often frustrated and quit the game.

I like the look of the game, I like the detail. But it just isn't fun. It's all a mix of very precise movement and very heavy firepower. It's more like sitting an exam than playing a game. I don't doubt others are having great fun with it, but roll on WW2, and roll on decent QB's.

[abneo3sierra]

Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by abneo3sierra:

I basically agree with your sentiment, however, found it amusing coming from someone with over 5000 posts, many of which I have just seen were in discussions much like the one you are condemning here.

Mmmm, if you take another look you'll see that those non-game related posts you're referring to were mostly in the General Forum. Most of my comments in the CMBO, CMBB, etc. forums did actually pertain to the game. That's a very clear distinction.

One would think that Steve would be spending more time tightening up his game than engaging in endless debates with a couple of posters on unrelated matters in the Game forum. That's the gyst of where I was coming from in that post.

As for Steve's comment re: my previous 5000+ posts (made over a period of over 8 years, BTW)...the difference back in the ol' days is that the exchanges between him and other posters did not come across so much as personal disputes. That's the kind of crap that belongs in an email exchange, not on a public forum where you're representing the company. Again, just my opinion. I have no emotional involvement in this argument, and I was just making an honest point. </font>

[CHUK]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Now, the counter argument to the notion that CMx2 is more frustrating because it is less abstract is quite simple. And that is less abstraction makes for a more engaging game. Sure, your little pixelated men sometimes don't do what you think they should be doing

Steve

Here is why i stopped playing CMSF after a dozen or so attempts.

1) In the tutorial campaign i have never been able to get all my guys into their vehicles at the same time. There are always 1 or 3 stragglers milling about their vehicle while they rest of the squad is mounted up ready to go.

2) the ridiculous interface with N for move S for reverse or what ever. It appears that you were trying to make the hotkeys as different as possible from CMx1 as possible just because you could. I can think of no good reason why you would not try to keep the hot keys the same as much as possible.

I'm just grateful i waited and bought the game off ebay for $13 instead of buying it as soon as it came out like i did cmbb and cmak; back when i had a sense of loyalty to BTS.

[Zatoichi]

The latest patch fixes most if not all boarding bugs, and the hotkeys have been user-definable for some time, so maybe you might be happier trying the game again now?

[gibsonm]

But then he wouldn't have a reason to whinge.

[Battlefront.com]

URC,

i think you are one of the best guys out there to get it right, so perhaps CMx2 will come to prove itself worthy.

Thank you. Of course I am supposed to be "hostile" to your comments if I am to live up to the expectations of some

i never enjoyed Close Combat series. i played CMBO demo a couple of times but never bought it.

heh... to some this is blasphemy, but to me is no surprise. If everybody that looked at each demo we put out loved it and bought it... we'd be extremely rich at the moment instead of just making a living.

Mannheim Tanker,

As for Steve's comment re: my previous 5000+ posts (made over a period of over 8 years, BTW)...the difference back in the ol' days is that the exchanges between him and other posters did not come across so much as personal disputes.

Egads that is a thick pair of rose colored glasses you have on there I'm here to say that this is factually incorrect. There have always been, and will always be, personal disputes. Why? Because that's the way some people are built. When someone wants to make it that way (Username, Maximus, Fionn, and many others of the "ol days") then it becomes that. Today is no different than those "ol days", other than the fact that for the last 8 years or so Charles has sworn off the Forums because he found he doesn't have the same ability to hunt and peck through the crap to find the valuable bits. I do.

BTW, it would be really humorous to see how long some of you guys would last in my shoes and how "perfect" your behavior would be. I doubt any of you could make it a week during a calm period, not to mention a couple of hours when some major brewup is going on. It makes it kinda hard to take a critic seriously when I know damned well they wouldn't want this job in a million years because they know, deep down inside, that they couldn't hack it.

Sirocco,

I like the look of the game, I like the detail. But it just isn't fun. It's all a mix of very precise movement and very heavy firepower. It's more like sitting an exam than playing a game. I don't doubt others are having great fun with it, but roll on WW2, and roll on decent QB's.

Understood As I said earlier, for some people I think the setting is more of the problem than the game engine itself. From your comments here, and elsewhere, I suspect you are just such a person.

abneo3sierra,

My entire point was that heated discussion, as the people here were doing, and also as you yourself have done, is not a bad thing if it stays on topic at least. And as I said, I did mostly agree with your honest point, as to the other people having a right to say their part, my point if any, is I believe it is great Steve et al care enough about their work to defend it..if something is worth doing, it is worth defending.

Agreed. In a perfect world customers could voice their concerns and complaints in a reasonable, unemotional, and generally open minded way. Most actually can, as evidenced by many of the posts in this thread. However, some can not. They feel that if they aren't being abusive then they won't be heard, or that being polite is akin to sugar coating their complaints, or that because I am here I should act as a virtual punching bag for pent up frustration. Some people are amazed I stick around, rather than be amazed at how I handle ill mannered posters when there is a perfectly viable alternative available to them (i.e. being polite and constructive).

CHUK,

As Zatoichi correctly said, these issues have been addressed probably 6-7 months ago. If these were your main issues, you may wish to try the game again.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

BTW, is it just me or has this thread gotten a lot calmer and more productive? Hmmm... I wonder what's changed about this.

Could it be that I've behaved so badly that critics are no longer posting? No, that's not the case since this page alone has quite a bit of criticism.

Could it be that I've suddenly had a major change of heart about how to conduct myself after 10 years? Hmmm... not likely.

Is it because a shadowy figure has some sort of sway over me and pressured me to change my ways? Nope since the only person that can tell me what to do is me. Charles comes in a close second, but he's more inclined to tell me to ban 100 people and see if that fixes the problem

WAIT! Could it possibly be that a couple of people who have a history of gunning for me (especially one individual) have exited the thread? Hmmm... there might be something to that, doncha think? And if that is the case, then perhaps the way I'm treated by someone does in fact have some bearing on how I post towards that person? Nah... that would be too easy an explanation. Must be something else,

Steve

[Huntarr]

Originally posted by CHUK:

Here is why i stopped playing CMSF after a dozen or so attempts.

1) In the tutorial campaign i have never been able to get all my guys into their vehicles at the same time. There are always 1 or 3 stragglers milling about their vehicle while they rest of the squad is mounted up ready to go.

2) the ridiculous interface with N for move S for reverse or what ever. It appears that you were trying to make the hotkeys as different as possible from CMx1 as possible just because you could. I can think of no good reason why you would not try to keep the hot keys the same as much as possible.

Quite alot has changed since the beginning of August 2007. (1.03) We are at patch 1.08 now. So get back in there.

[ April 03, 2008, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Huntarr ]

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

BTW, is it just me or has this thread gotten a lot calmer and more productive? Hmmm... I wonder what's changed about this.

Could it be that I've behaved so badly that critics are no longer posting? No, that's not the case since this page alone has quite a bit of criticism.

Could it be that I've suddenly had a major change of heart about how to conduct myself after 10 years? Hmmm... not likely.

Is it because a shadowy figure has some sort of sway over me and pressured me to change my ways? Nope since the only person that can tell me what to do is me. Charles comes in a close second, but he's more inclined to tell me to ban 100 people and see if that fixes the problem

WAIT! Could it possibly be that a couple of people who have a history of gunning for me (especially one individual) have exited the thread? Hmmm... there might be something to that, doncha think? And if that is the case, then perhaps the way I'm treated by someone does in fact have some bearing on how I post towards that person? Nah... that would be too easy an explanation. Must be something else,

Steve

No its because of 1.08.

There is a lull here as everyone is off downloading and trying (well hopefully) before coming back here.

It seems to be a tend that just after a new version comes out there's a heap of "What's good about Version X" or "What's bad about Version X" and then after a while we come back to these more generic "What's good / bad about CMX2" and "What will CMX2 Second World War be like" type threads.

Just wait a few weeks and a new one will start or this one will be resuscitated.

[Battlefront.com]

Mannheim Tanker,

I have no emotional involvement in this argument, and I was just making an honest point.

Your post you just made over at Dosomefink indicates that this is not true. You posted your opinion here, I addressed it completely and without any slights on you at all. It just so happens we disagree, which I think I am allowed to do, aren't I? Or is it unprofessional for me to have my own opinions?

So what is your response to my post here? You flamed me on another board. Even worse, you flamed me in part for a comment I didn't make. Care to elaborate how this is "unemotional" and in keeping with your high posting standards?

Obviously people see what they want to see. They want to see me as some sort of bully, they will. It matters not what I do, they will skip over the stuff that contradicts their opinion and then focus on the stuff that they feel reinforces it. Including comments I didn't make Then they go and behave exactly as they say I shouldn't.

If there is one thing I can not stand, beyond all else, is hypocrisy. I make no apologies for how I conduct myself here, nor excuses. The same can not be said for many of my critics, obviously.

Steve

[ April 03, 2008, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: Battlefront.com ]

[Battlefront.com]

Gibsonm,

Just wait a few weeks and a new one will start or this one will be resuscitated.

Death, taxes, and abusive posters are all constants in this world, so too true

Steve

[Guest]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

Is it because a shadowy figure has some sort of sway over me and pressured me to change my ways? Nope since the only person that can tell me what to do is me. Charles comes in a close second, but he's more inclined to tell me to ban 100 people and see if that fixes the problem

Since my MO recently has been to open mouth, insert foot... I just wanted to say that I, for my part, had no intention of "swaying" you to change your ways. I wouldn't even attempt to try and tell you what to do... although I suppose a suggestion that this might be getting personal and should go elsewhere could be seen as such.

Nor would I want to do what you do with respect to the forums, I'm more on Charles' side of things to be honest. I imagine and hope that you know these things, but I wanted to clarify, since I've pissed off and alienated some other folks in the last few days that I happen to respect.

As for my suggestion, it was just me doing what I did before you brought me on as a tester, trying to be level-headed. Failing miserably to bring calm to the situation, but I thought it was worth a shot.

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[Battlefront.com]

Phillip,

No worries... the comment I made was in response to some other people's notion of how things work around here. There are some that don't understand what I do besides "abuse customers", therefore they have rather inventive imaginations of what goes on behind closed doors

Adam1,

I can be faulted for many things, I suppose, but I think few would be able to make a case about my sincerity. Which is why most people who think they know how PR works think I'm miserable at it. I'm only as much a PR guy here as is necessary, otherwise I'm "just" the guy who designed the game and is most likely able to get things changed based on user comments. I think most would agree they would rather not have me switch over to being a PR guy, so me thinks I'll stick with what the status quo

Steve

[Sirocco]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

As I said earlier, for some people I think the setting is more of the problem than the game engine itself. From your comments here, and elsewhere, I suspect you are just such a person.

I must admit I haven't been motivated enough to put too much time into it. But I have seen enough issues with 1:1 to make me concerned for the future. The problems touched on here with regard to waypoints being erased also concern me. I pointed out some weeks ago that for the WW2 game that can be critical when moving armoured vehicles.

I haven't touched the game since possibly 1.05. What I haven't liked since the start is the interface. The new routing system with units simply disappearing off the map disheartens me. In general I feel for all the big steps forward you took a few back, some I assume to be down to development time, but some that I regard as plain poor design decisions, in particular the interface. I know it appears to be back as a space bar pop up, but unless it can be redefined as a right click it sounds too much like more keyboard centrism.

So, yes, the main problem for me is the subject matter, and has been since it was announced. But the efforts I have made to get into it have been thwarted by parts of the implementation.

For example, and to return to the original point of this thread, I played a QB with a map from one of the user generated map packs. I had some vehicles and infantry. Directly in front of me were two compounds each with a few buildings. The enemy was across the map facing me in more buildings across open ground. I spent far more time maneuvering vehicles between the buildings, cancelling wacky movement orders and keeping exposure down than I did dealing with the enemy. The orders were pretty simple. It isn't as bad as it was - and I assume it's been improved since 1.05 - but when struggling to get the game to do what it should is harder than beating the enemy there's a real problem.

I'm just hoping we can write CM:SF off later as being an extended beta for WW2.

[Meach]

If this thread is all about immersion then I find it quite immersive.

I enjoy a scenario or QB and can get lost into my own little world quite happily....or maybe that was the cricket bat to the brainbox back in 94 that does that.....

Anyways, I digress. When I play my three year old climbs up on my knee to see the "shoulders game" as she cannot say soldiers yet....I know, I am working on it but I do have her yelling "INCOMING!" so there is hope...

The point I am trying to make is that it's immersive enough for me and my lil kid to have Mrs Meach yelling at us to come for dinner and for us to put Mrs Meach on ignore list.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Sirocco:

Well, look on the bright side, then: those guys that have been whining to be included on the beta team, here's your chance!

[MikeyD]

On a more humorous note, has anyone tried cataloging the last six months of 'fundamentally flawed' demands to 'fix' the game from this board and imagined the result? It really is frightening, CMSF would morph into some freakish Frankenstein monster game pulling in every different direction. First, all the old CMx1 commands would be revived and realtime play all-but abandoned; There would be 40km+ maps capable of handling brigade-size forces, but with individual unit control and micro terrain textures... with tiny PBEM file sizes to boot. Oh, and plop the whole thing into the European theatre circa 1944!

[Guest]

To be fair a few of the "fundamental flaws" are things that actually have been fixed or needed to be looked at afresh -- they just weren't as "FUNDAMENTAL" as they seemed. I really didn't realize until I spoke more with Steve and Charles (well, what little I've spoken with Charles) just how much they really knew what they were doing; they didn't just get lucky like some folks might expect, like so many of the people I know in other industries.

They built and designed this engine incredibly well. I doubt there are many issues that can't be rectified without scrapping the entire game (or ignoring the laws of physics).

Edit: That's not to say the game's perfect, I intend to be a complaining thorn in the sides of Steve and the beta testers for a long time.

[CHUK]

Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

CHUK,

As Zatoichi correctly said, these issues have been addressed probably 6-7 months ago. If these were your main issues, you may wish to try the game again.

Steve

I just got the game LAST WEEK, and am having the boarding issue -w- the 1.07 patch.

I was not aware that the keys were user definable, but i stand by my statement that there is no good reason to have made the hot keys different in the first place.

I will download the 1.08 patch and try again, however at this point i'm burnt out on CMSF so it will have to wait.

I was only back at the BF boards looking for a way to play CMX1 on my new computer and figured i would pour some gas on the fire over here due to the attitude i perceived from the BF staff on the CMX1 boards.

I really don't understand all the hostility, are you angry that you made a game series so good that people are still playing them after all these years? From my perspective CMX2 is sort of like the "new coke" if you remember that.

[Guest Guest]

deleted per user request

[Huntarr]

I was not aware that the keys were user definable, but i stand by my statement that there is no good reason to have made the hot keys different in the first place.

Different from what? Anything you the user could possible want? They are user definable. The default doesn't matter.

[Guest Guest]

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