PzKpfw IV Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 I would like to start by saying that this game sounds amazing, I can't wait to buy it. I hope that TBG software and battlefront are very successfull with this game and set an example for other developers as CM has done. I have only recently discovered this game. While reading the very informative web page, although I find the information on how the game is played a little hard to find, I noticed the description of armour penetration. It made me think of Panzer Elite's armour penetration model. To the point of this post. In your description of the effects of sloped armour you describe how the slope of the armour increases it's effectiveness because the projectile has more armour to penetrate on the angle. This is incorrect. Sloped armour is significantly more effective than what you describe. The most significant effect of sloped armour is not caused by a projectile having to penetrate more armour. When a projectile strikes armor at close to perpindicular angles all the energy of the projectile is absorbed by the surface. When a projectile strikes armour at a non perpindicular angle the energy of the projectile is partially or completely DEFLECTED. Sloped armour has different effects on different types of ammunition. The armour peircing ballistic cap rounds from WWII were designed to lessen the effect of the projectile striking armour at non perpindicular angles by having a flat tip covered by a fragile cone to preserve the balistic properties of the projectile. The flat tip of the round would increase the chance of it digging in to the armour and not have it's energy reflected. Sloped armour is also less effective against HEAT, and HESH rounds than say SABOT type rounds. I am not an expert in armour penetration but I have a good understanding of physics. It has always bothered me when I hear people explain the effectiveness of sloped armour in the way your website does. I know this is pure nitpicking, please do not take it as criticism of the game, I know it's going to be incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurtz Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 Really? I had the impression deflection wasn't much of an issue for APFSDS-type penetrators. Will a APFSDS really ricochet off the armour? Look at the original Leopard 2. If deflection was important, they wouldn't have designed it with vertical turret armour. The improved versions have a wedge-shaped addon-armour, but if rounds were deflected, you would risk rounds hitting the lower part of the wedge being deflected downwards towards the relatively thin armour above the driver's compartment. (Like the first versions of the Panther). Sloping armour was important to deflect rounds, but I don't think that aspect is important anymore. In case of HEAT, the longer distance created by sloping armour is definitely an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I had heard deflection is (or at least was) a greater problem with APFSDS than with APDS. at least with the old rounds too high an angle was likely to snap a long rod penetrator in half. I recall a famous photo of an Israeli round penetration of the gun tube of a T62 at what looks like a highly oblique angle. The consensus was that that penetration was most probably an old 105mm APDS round, the then-current APFSDS would've bounced off. This is based on absolutely positively no information on my part, but I wonder if Drop Team's armor penetraion model will be the CM penetration model. They've got an excellent sophisticated penetration model in the soon-to-be-obsolete CMx1 games, why would they feel the need to reinvent the wheel for Drop Team? Well, it all depends on how much the game's publisher/builder duties overlap. Maybe BFC's willing to share their penetration model for the greater cause, maybe they're not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaytoniousRex Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I understand your objection, PzKpfw IV. In fact, DropTeam does model reflection off of sloped surfaces not simply some kind of "higher thickness" by itself. Rounds that ricochet are literally modelled in the game so if your frame rate is high enough (or the projectile is slow enough) you can actually see them bounce off of the target (and potentially hit something else at *greatly* reduced effectiveness). It's funny that you should point this out because in the past I've always been uncomfortable with that simplified description of sloped armor, too. Yet here we are after all these years of effort and I end up slapping that same simplified description onto DropTeam's website. Oh, the irony... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw IV Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 ClaytoniousRex, Thank you for the response, it is good to know that the penetration model is that complex, it is really an amazing project you guys have done. I can't wait to see the finished product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw IV Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 Oh yeah, I was going to mention, though most here are probably aware of it. There is an excellent site -> http://gva.freeweb.hu/ describing armour penetration and ammunition types from WWII. I found it suprising to know that most all of the tank ammunition used today was used in WWII including HEAT, And SABOT, as well as Tungsten Core rounds, they didn't have depleted uranium yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted March 15, 2006 Share Posted March 15, 2006 PzKpfw IV, David Honner's site? Cool! Used to correspond with him during my PE days while assisting the troops with weapon effectiveness mods. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts