tornado Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 Dan/Brain: It does not seem fair to me to only allow a maximum of 1/2 XP to a set of pilots running a custom mission. These pilots are at the same risk of losing their "lives" as pilots that are running a regular mission; therefore, it seems fair that they should get the full XP that they earn. Now, if someone creates a really unfair battle, with them having the advantage, then the XP should be limited. However, if the battle is evenly matched the full XP should be awarded! These are my thoughts on the issue, and I know others share this view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 It's far too easy to create an easy battle in het Custom mission - eg have 4 enemy fighters each worth half as much as you and have only you on your side - hey presto you get equal points, but the individual enemy fighters are easy meat. Or alternatively create a mission where high-point bombers are excorted by low point fighters - again easy points. during testing it was easy to get 300+ points per mission in custom - it wasn't the exception - it was the rule! Personally I wanted it completely removed from the ladder system - you got no exp, no kills and it didn't count if you weer shot down or killed, but I got over-rulled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartbert Posted October 8, 2006 Share Posted October 8, 2006 The testers were pretty evenly divided between awarding no value, awarding full value and awarding something in between. There were valid arguments on all sides of the issue, but in the end, Dan and I decided to go with a middle of the road approach and see what happens when it hit the larger playing public. We're interested in hearing what you guys think. Like most things in life, I suspect that we will hear a wide variety of opinions that are at odds with each other, but who knows? Maybe there will be general agreement on what the solution should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivven_darke Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I totally agree with Stalin. I will never touch a custom mission (only exception might be Sixx' Tournament).The system gives too much room for cheating as he said above. Look at The Bride's pilot "custom only" with an average 308,07 XP / mission in the all time records. I won some weeks with an average around 160-170 per mission but could never reach 300 or more! Also I dont't wanna know against whom I have to fight, you couldn't also choose in reality. So please kick it out from the records please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixxkiller Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Well my advice is to take half of the bombers xp away and let people have the full value for kills and damages for the fighters. It was really easy to get major points as you could fly against the heavy US bombers with new pilots. I was able to actually get 700+ for leader and about the same or more with the wingman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 From reading all these posts (thanks for replying, all), am I to assume that it is impossible to create an evenly matched battle? I find that difficult to believe. If the battle is evenly matched and a pilot gets 300xp then so be it! If the battle is uneven - then limit or eliminate any XP awarded. I am not asking that someone flying Me-262s against P-40Bs get XP and kill numbers awarded. However, someone flying a FW-190A8 against P-51s or P38Ls should. Also, I do think the starting altitude option for opponents should be removed. Pity I wasn't around when this was being tested - that will teach me to disappear! [ October 09, 2006, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: tornado ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixxkiller Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Well believe it Tom. It is possible to have a fair battle but its also easy to create an unfair one too. You being around for testing wouldnt have helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZarahNeander Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 My unqualified newbie 2 cents... At least no penality in 1 element matches where the human player is disadvantaged. I find it hard to imagine that this solution would allow major exploits. Pia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 There was no problem creating fair battles and there was no problem creating unfair battles - either way. Zarah's idea isn't a bad one tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 Originally posted by ZarahNeander: My unqualified newbie 2 cents... At least no penality in 1 element matches where the human player is disadvantaged. I find it hard to imagine that this solution would allow major exploits. Pia I was thinking along similar lines, Pia. If you set up a scenerio where the AI had a higher/stronger aircraft then yours then why should there be a penalty? However, this will be my last post on the matter. I am glad we are getting some discussion out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigo Montoya Posted October 10, 2006 Share Posted October 10, 2006 The reason custom missions need the 1/2 experience penalty is that it is easier to get massive experience than it is in a regular game. Experience is the bedrock of this game's balance. If the customs didn't have the 1/2 penalty, suddenly all the experience you earn in regular games is worth half of what you could be earning in custom games. One of the key ways my pilot Customs Only would get an advantage would be to select starting altitudes. I would have my fighter start at medium altitude flying against an opposing Me-262 flying at low altitude and a bomber squadron at very low altitude. Because I started at medium altitude and the Me-262's were at low, I got to go first. I would swoop down and draw 2 cards because of power dive. Almost everytime I'd kill the leader Me-262 in the first turn with this advantage. Now the opposing wingman moves to leader and loses all his skills. He gets one crack at me, then my wingman and I pound him on the second turn. On the 3rd turn, I power dive to very low altitude where the bombers have no advantage and would never be flying in a regular game. I have 4 turns to kill 2 bombers and all I need an IMS:destroyed to get through for each. By *not* having an escorting fighter pair, I don't have to worry about my teammate leeching experience from me. The bottomline: No matter what the combat value differential says about how hard a custom mission is, it's way, way easier than a regular mission. You get too many advantages when you set up a custom mission and therefore customs should be for penalized. They are good for fun or practice, but they shouldn't ruin the ladder. I'm with Stalin on this one and would love to see all the customs missions not count on the ladder. At the very least, I'm hoping that all the customs missions in the beta (prior to the 1/2 experience penalty) would be stricken from the ladder. It's not right for Customs Only to have the lead spot in experience/mission. A. Machiavelli really should have that spot. I know as the pilot for both that it was much, much harder for A. Machiavelli to accomplish her ~163/mission than for Customs Only to get 308/mission. -The Bride Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tornado Posted October 10, 2006 Author Share Posted October 10, 2006 Okay- I lied - I am making one more post. As Bride, SilentAce, and I discussed last night - you could have a random generator for custom missions. You would start the mission not knowing if you was entering a dogfight, an escort or an intercept mission. That was the main idea that Ace had. Also, the starting altitude of all elements (at a bare minimum, the AI elements)would be random. I'll take credit for that idea All of this would help give the AI a better chance of surviving - apparently the custom missions are way too easy - I have only flown one with a 500xp limit - and I found it to be as challenging as any of the regular missions. I have not flown any with my uber pilots or with very strong aircraft (Me-262, P-38L, etc)and that seems to be when the missions become way too easy (again, from the impression I am getting from the posts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartbert Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 I guess we could put in some options for generating random missions and starting altitudes, but I don't know if we would want to completely eliminate a player's ability to specify what aircraft and starting altitudes they wanted. Some player's like to try out different "what if" scenarios just to see what happens. Like, how does a P-47 match up against a Spitfire IX, or whatever. How would players feel if we went with Stalin's suggestion where custom missions count for nothing? They are purely for "fun". You don't get credit for any kills or XP, but you also don't get any fatigue and you cannot be killed. We assumed that most players would want to get a little something for their trouble, but if most players agree that they would play more custom missions if they didn't count, then that would be a pretty easy change to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rivven_darke Posted October 11, 2006 Share Posted October 11, 2006 I'd like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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