Destroy, too powerful?

[Pawlock]

IMS 2 Destroyed as it stands now, is it too powerful?

I have been on the recieving end and the punishing side of this card, and IMO in its present format is overpowered for the expense of using it.

At first glance no its not, because IMS cards can be countered by many cards. Once past the novice stage it becomes a game turner all to often.

In Wingmans hands its a free shot, in a Leaders hands who has an inkling of how to play its nearly a certainty, 1Man, Destroy, follwed by an ace at a wingy is nearly always lethal, even without the ace, probabilities high against Wingy.

A Wingman using it at a Leader although has free shot, normally has to contend with a greater amount of cards, so although powerfull, chances of survival are more balanced.

My thoughs on how this can be overcome and bring more balance into the game, would simply make it a "IMS 3 Destroyed" meaning you would need that extra burst to use it.

Thoughs?

[Moon]

It's powerful, no doubt, a "table-turner" card so to speak. I personally don't think that it's too powerful however. Like you say, it can be countered by many cards.

But keep in mind that the demo only shows 1/10th of the game. In the full version, as your pilots gain experience, the 2:D card gets less and less useful, because your pilots will have more and more cards to play, especially during the first rounds. It is also less useful at lower levels actually, because many of the early planes have 0 burst, meaning that you have to be trailing in order to use it.

Martin

[Bruce G.]

I agree with Moon. In the demo you're only playing with a limited set of planes, but later, once your wingmen have 4 cards on Defense plus several "Draw extra card" abilities, 2:Destroy rarely works. And leaders are carrying 9-10 cards plus multiple "draw extra." Its main value is actually in allowing 1:1 bursts to get through as your opponent is always wary of the 2:Destroy card coming up.

I like 2:Destroy because it's sort of a "lurking danger" card that you always have to be afraid of. But that danger is more anticipated than actualized. The very existence of the card forces more conservative play, but its rarity keeps it from being a game-breaker.

Lastly, DiF is at heart a card game. In any card game, the possibility exists that you're just not going to get the right cards, or your opponent will get an outstanding hand and you won't be able to deal with it. That's simply the nature of the game, much as luck has always been part of wargames. I actually like it for that reason.

In the boardgame, 2:Destroy was never a problem. I think players will find the same in the computer game once they start playing the full version.

[Pawlock]

Originally posted by Bruce G.:

I agree with Moon. In the demo you're only playing with a limited set of planes, but later, once your wingmen have 4 cards on Defense plus several "Draw extra card" abilities, 2:Destroy rarely works. And leaders are carrying 9-10 cards plus multiple "draw extra." Its main value is actually in allowing 1:1 bursts to get through as your opponent is always wary of the 2:Destroy card coming up.

I like 2:Destroy because it's sort of a "lurking danger" card that you always have to be afraid of. But that danger is more anticipated than actualized. The very existence of the card forces more conservative play, but its rarity keeps it from being a game-breaker.

Lastly, DiF is at heart a card game. In any card game, the possibility exists that you're just not going to get the right cards, or your opponent will get an outstanding hand and you won't be able to deal with it. That's simply the nature of the game, much as luck has always been part of wargames. I actually like it for that reason.

In the boardgame, 2:Destroy was never a problem. I think players will find the same in the computer game once they start playing the full version.

Dont get me wrong, I like the destroy card but sometimes I think its just to easy to use for its lethality.

As for its rarity, Im in two minds on that, bad luck other night maybe, but 3 SUCCESSIVE games my wingies went down within 2 turns to the destroy card combos, thats even having check 6 on 2 occasions. I've also been other way round, in fact 1 game I had a destroy card twice!!

Theses are not isolated occasions, they may be extremes, but rarity Im certainly not wholly convinced on that.

[Moon]

Pawlock, when you right click on the 2:D card when it's listed in the right-hand action window, a little "card" image shows up, stating what it does. But also showing the rarity of that card in the deck. For the 2:D it's 1%.

The problem with rarity is that with hundreds of games played each day, even the most extremely rare things are bound to happen sooner or later. And it "feels" like it happens way more often than it really does (people tend to remember unusual events more or somefink)...

Martin

[Guest Mike]

The main trouble with all rare cards is that when they DO come up they tend to have a massive effect - so the game becomes more of a lottery as to who can get the lucky break first. And that kindof removes the pleasure one gets from "skill".

But that's the nature of games of luck of course!!

[Pawlock]

Originally posted by Moon:

Pawlock, when you right click on the 2:D card when it's listed in the right-hand action window, a little "card" image shows up, stating what it does. But also showing the rarity of that card in the deck. For the 2:D it's 1%.

The problem with rarity is that with hundreds of games played each day, even the most extremely rare things are bound to happen sooner or later. And it "feels" like it happens way more often than it really does (people tend to remember unusual events more or somefink)...

Martin

Yes, I realized the Rarity is given on card, but my thoughs are leaning towards is even 1% too high, considering the throughput of cards dealt each game?

I would'nt mind betting on an average 2v2 game,during the course of the game at least 1 Destroy card is dealt,wether on not it gets used is another matter.

Im not just looking for obstacles to knock down, but rahter making observations based on the more experience I gain playing, albeit in the demo and not full game,granted.

[Pawlock]

Originally posted by Mike:

The main trouble with all rare cards is that when they DO come up they tend to have a massive effect - so the game becomes more of a lottery as to who can get the lucky break first. And that kindof removes the pleasure one gets from "skill".

But that's the nature of games of luck of course!!

Thats exactly the feeling Im tending to get, I take in a good pilot and first turn the wingy gets it with the Man/destroy combo. From then on its just survival mostly. I've also dealt this out too, and although its always nice to get the kill, its certainly not very satisfying.

[Bruce G.]

Originally posted by Pawlock:

Im in two minds on that, bad luck other night maybe, but 3 SUCCESSIVE games my wingies went down within 2 turns to the destroy card combos, thats even having check 6 on 2 occasions.

One question I meant to ask: what effect are you expecting Check Six to have in this case? Check SIx is a leader ability that allows that leader to draw a card when his Wingman is attacked - it does not affect Wingmen in any way. A leader with Check Six is not going to help keep a wingman from going down to the 2:Destroyed card. You may be misreading the rules?

[Pawlock]

Originally posted by Bruce G.:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pawlock:

Im in two minds on that, bad luck other night maybe, but 3 SUCCESSIVE games my wingies went down within 2 turns to the destroy card combos, thats even having check 6 on 2 occasions.

One question I meant to ask: what effect are you expecting Check Six to have in this case? Check SIx is a leader ability that allows that leader to draw a card when his Wingman is attacked - it does not affect Wingmen in any way. A leader with Check Six is not going to help keep a wingman from going down to the 2:Destroyed card. You may be misreading the rules? </font>

[Bruce G.]

Ok, you're right that it's a Wingman skill - my bad. But wouldn't that just mean "+1 Wingman Def?" I always thought it worked otherwise. Oh well.

[ August 25, 2005, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Bruce G. ]

[Panzeh]

Destroy will basically keep you from being complacent and it'll give true fighters their advantage over 'heavy fighters' and bombers. True fighters will be drawing a lot of cards and will most likely have something to do about the enemy(of course, most people are afraid somehow to discard attacks). Planes like the BF-110 will be at a disadvantage against the destroy card, but they do get the gunner attacks as a small compensation.

[Pawlock]

Originally posted by Bruce G.:

Ok, you're right that it's a Wingman skill - my bad. But wouldn't that just mean "+1 Wingman Def?" I always thought it worked otherwise. Oh well.

Right, which translates to 1 extra card when attacked.

[Skuderian]

Hi!

I think the card is powerful in the Beta Demo, but there are so many reasons for that.

You can purchase only few skills, so you have a deck of normally 6 cards for leader and 2 or 3 for wingman. Nobody buys extra Cards for his deck cause of the registration. In full game this will change, except when you have bought all flying skills.

And a few days ago I played 3 or 4 2on2 battles. I started 3 times with this card and 2 times attack was succesfull, but a few ours later I played more than 20 2on2 without this card, so most games are correct an a few games you have no choice or your opponent has none, but thats life.