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Actions, reactions, etc.


Liebchen

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Can someone please explain for me, in a clear manner, what the different characteristics of the different moves are in relation to each other? The "help" barely says anything.

For example, it seems to me that a barrel roll works well when your being tailed, but does it work better than with other situations? What is the interplay?

Or are the actions and reactions just a collection of cards that either counter an attack or are countered by like cards?

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Some cards are only reaction cards, some are only action cards, and some have a double purpose. Action means that you can only play them when it's your turn.

A barrel roll is a straight reaction card for example, you cannot do anything with it when it's your turn, only when you are being attacked. An "In my sights" or "maneuver" card is a straight attack card, you can only use it when it's your turn and you are attacking somebody else.

A Vertical Roll is a double purpose card - you can play it when it's your turn (to change altitude) or as defensive when attacked by somebody else.

When you right-click on a listed action/card during your turn, a little window pops up showing what it is good for.

Usually it only takes a few games against the AI to see the "flow" of action/reaction. It's really more simple than can be described while not seeing it in action.

Martin

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I got that much already. What I'm asking is if there is any other substantive difference between the different moves. Is one action card like another action card?

For instance, what is the practical difference between an 'In my sights 1:2' and an 'Out of the sun 1:2'?

I see that a scissors will switch from disadvantaged to advantaged. I see that half loop will change neutral to tailing.

But what is the practical difference between 'tight turn' and 'vertical roll' when it comes to reacting? Do they have any different outcomes, other than requiring different counter-reactions from the attacker?

When I use a 'vertical roll' I don't change altitude. Are you saying that it is supposed to? Is this only when it's used as an action, but not a reaction? (If so, why?)

You see where I'm going with this?

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Well... not sure smile.gif But I'll try...

The outcome of an "action/reaction" chain always depends on the original action card played. So if I play a maneuver card and we then keep playing tight turns or scissors etc. until in the end I cannot counter you, then the final outcome is that my original maneuver card "sticks". I gain a positional advantage on you. The cards played in between do not create an outcome as such ("other than requiring a different counter-reaction from the attacker").

The example of Vertical Roll is a good one to illustrate this. As an action card, Vertical Roll does change the outcome (you can change altitudes), but played as a reaction card it does not (except to counter whatever action you took first).

Martin

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The main difference between out of the sun and in my sights is what they can be countered by. In my sights can be countered by several different types of cards whereas out of the sun can ONLY be countered with vertical roll or ace pilot (both fairly rare), hence out of the sun 1:2 is a more precious card to have than in my sights 1:2. This is the kind of thing you only pick up after playing for a while. The right click will tell what the card does and what it responds to, but doesn't really tell you what cards can be played in response to that card, which is equally important to know. The other thing to consider in defense is that most cards that react to attacking cards can be countered if the opponent has that same card, so if you have say 3 barrel roll cards and 1 tight turn, and your opponent plays a in my sights 2: destroyed card, you're better off saving your butt with a barrel roll, because if your opponent counters with barrel roll you still have 2 more up your sleeve. If you try to counter with tight turn and your opponent plays tight turn, having 3 barrel rolls left in your hand isn't going to help.

[ August 14, 2005, 05:49 AM: Message edited by: Haohmaru ]

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Moon, I understand the concept of the chain of actions and reactions, believe me, I do. Haohmaru seems to have grasped my question, however:

The main difference between out of the sun and in my sights is what they can be countered by. In my sights can be countered by several different types of cards whereas out of the sun can ONLY be countered with vertical roll or ace pilot (both fairly rare), hence out of the sun 1:2 is a more precious card to have than in my sights 1:2.

This is the stuff I'm asking about. Are the actions and reactions all generic? I think not. This difference between 'in my sights' and 'out of the sun,' for example, is explained nowhere that I've found.

Here's another example: I've noted that I can use a barrel roll sometimes in response to an attack, but not other times, for example. I'm trying to understand the parameters and distinctions.

This is the kind of thing you only pick up after playing for a while. The right click will tell what the card does and what it responds to, but doesn't really tell you what cards can be played in response to that card, which is equally important to know.
It sure would be nice if the right-click window elaborated a little, such as by telling us these things. Or at least the help files should say something about it. Is is written out somewhere that I might be able to see?

The other thing to consider in defense is that most cards that react to attacking cards can be countered if the opponent has that same card,

Is this certain? I seem to recall having had more than one option yellowed out when reacting/acting, at times (but I could have misremembered this). Are there not some cards that counter other different reactions, for example, 'ace pilor'?

... so if you have say 3 barrel roll cards and 1 tight turn, and your opponent plays a in my sights 2: destroyed card, you're better off saving your butt with a barrel roll, because if your opponent counters with barrel roll you still have 2 more up your sleeve. If you try to counter with tight turn and your opponent plays tight turn, having 3 barrel rolls left in your hand isn't going to help.

So are you saying that if I start countering with a barrel roll, I'm committed to using only that card from that point on? It doesn't say this anywhere.

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When you right-click a card, you get to see what it responds to, but you are correct that we don't show information the other way around, ie, we don't show what cards respond to a given card.

</font>

  • Ace Pilot: Can only be responded to by another Ace Pilot</font>
  • Barrel Roll: Can be responded to by Barrel Roll or Ace Pilot</font>
  • Tight Turn: Can be responded to by a Tight Turn, Scissors or Ace Pilot</font>
  • Scissors: Can be responded to by a Scissors or Ace Pilot</font>
  • Vertical Roll: Can be responded to by a Vertical Roll or Ace Pilot</font>
  • Maneuvering: Can be responded to by a Tight Turn or Ace Pilot</font>
  • Half Loop: Can be responded to by an Ace Pilot</font>
  • In My Sights: Can be responded to by a Barrel Roll, Tight Turn, Vertical Roll or Ace Pilot</font>
  • Out of the Sun: Can be responded to by a Vertical Roll or Ace Pilot</font>

So if you respond to an In My Sights with a Barrel Roll, your opponent can only respond with another Barrel Roll or an Ace Pilot. Since an Ace Pilot is pretty rare, his most likely response is with a Barrel Roll. Therefore, when it comes back to you, your response will have to be with yet another Barrel Roll (or and Ace Pilot).

So you are in some sense committing yourself down a certain path once you choose to respond to an In My Sights with a Barrel Roll instead of a Tight Turn.

[ August 14, 2005, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: bartbert ]

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  • 3 weeks later...

Here is an action/reaction summary I made primarily for my own use, but now that it's done, why not put it online?

I found useful to have the occurence percentages of each card at hand, it helps getting a better grasp of the various sequence probabilities.

For instance, the choice between tight turn and barrel roll in defence, or what cards to discard to maximize the chances of getting some others.

I would appreciate any comments, changes or additions.

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Originally posted by kuroi neko:

Here is an action/reaction summary I made primarily for my own use, but now that it's done, why not put it online?

I found useful to have the occurence percentages of each card at hand, it helps getting a better grasp of the various sequence probabilities.

For instance, the choice between tight turn and barrel roll in defence, or what cards to discard to maximize the chances of getting some others.

I would appreciate any comments, changes or additions.

Very nice indeed!
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Very groovy "cheat" sheet.

Now to see if I understand the IMS/OotS 1 to 3 thing; I take it that the # 1 to 3 refers to the amount of time you've spent lining up the target. For instance, if on turn 1 you play a uncountered maneuver, you can then follow it with an IMS/OotS 1, but not a 2 or 3. After that attack, if you don't get shaken off, you may follow-up with an IMS/OotS 1 or 2, but not a 3. Rinse and repeat.

If that was in the help, I couldn't find it.

Now if I can just get a feel for when my wingman refills...[i suspect that if I'd followed my first instinct and bought a copy of the card game when it first came out, I wouldn't be having these problems]...

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Now to see if I understand the IMS/OotS 1 to 3 thing; I take it that the # 1 to 3 refers to the amount of time you've spent lining up the target. For instance, if on turn 1 you play a uncountered maneuver, you can then follow it with an IMS/OotS 1, but not a 2 or 3. After that attack, if you don't get shaken off, you may follow-up with an IMS/OotS 1 or 2, but not a 3. Rinse and repeat.
You're close, but not quite right. The first number on an IMS/OotS is the number of bursts required to use it. I believe most if not all of the demo aircraft have one burst when neutral, two when advantaged, and four when tailing (none have any bursts when disadvantaged or tailed). This can be modified by the Marksman skill, and some of the other aircraft are different. So basically, you can play as many IMS/OotS cards as you have bursts. An uncontested Maneuver will normally give you two bursts (assuming you went from Neutral to Advantaged) and would allow you to play an IMS/OotS 2:X or two 1:X. Playing Maneuvers, Half Loops, and Vertical Rolls against a wingman also gives you more bursts to use, although there is no change in the onscreen graphics in that case. You can see how many burst you have available in the pilot display: its the last line, IIRC.

Now if I can just get a feel for when my wingman refills...[i suspect that if I'd followed my first instinct and bought a copy of the card game when it first came out, I wouldn't be having these problems]...

The Wingmen get a fresh hand of cards (generally two, unless modified by skills or damage) each time they have the change to attack or are attacked. So basically, there is no reason to hold back with Wingmen: any cards left in their hands at the end of the attack sequence are discarded.
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Very handy - thanks.

The Wingmen get a fresh hand of cards (generally two, unless modified by skills or damage) each time they have the change to attack or are attacked. So basically, there is no reason to hold back with Wingmen: any cards left in their hands at the end of the attack sequence are discarded. [/QB]
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