Bismarck in the Med? Gotta be a bug

[Minty]

Hi Guys,

Just a quick one but a major naval bug, couldn't find any previous mention of it so here goes.

Can I suggest that countries can only place new ships in their own ports when built and not in the ports of their new friends. ( Bismarck / Tirpitz / Prinz Eugen all can be built in French or Spanish ports) I know the idea is to be able to put subs in the pens at Brest but I'm in the midst of surprsiing a very perplexed (and soon to be dead) British Admiral with 50,000 tonnes of German steel in the Med despite the UK still holding Gibraltor. Great Fun for me but a little unrealistic. Did the Germans carry it over the mountains of Northern spain? Or find a very very big train? Perhaps quickly build a canal 20 times the length of the Panama from Kiel? Can anyone explain to me how production can be moved for a 50,000 tonne keel that takes 3 years to lay down?

Got to be a bug surely.

[Blashy]

Not a bug but you can turn on HOMEBUILDS only.

That means ALL units can only be built on homeland.

This means that when new units arrive for Germany they can only be placed IN Germany (ports).

I would like for homebuilds to still permit the building of subs in foreign ports as they did in France and Norway.

[JerseyJohn]

Ah -- that's a good thing to know. Thanks Blashy! And thank you, Minty, for bringing it up.

I'd definitely opt for having all German units start out in Germany. Even if they'd been composed of foreign recruits, I'm sure they'd have been trained and equipt on German soil. And for ships, that's completely right, no way to move a warship from it's slipway in the Baltic to one in France or Italy. Considering the 3 years needed to build a BB, they really do need to be set in a single location from build to launch.

[Blashy]

Expect to see it in my mod .

Railheads as well, they add a sweet tactical element to the game.

Me and Dave (I think pzgdr as well) are still trying to convince Hubert to have those options on by default in the campaign. He's one though cookie .

[TaoJah]

Well, IMHO you can debate on the HOMEBUILD options, especially for ships.

If there is a perfectly functioning port in Vichy France under German control and the Germans commision a new ship, they might as well build it there if they need it there.

What's the reasoning against it, except that it makes using new units harder ?

[Colin I]

I have conquered Vichy France and placed Bismarck in Med. given Marseilles as a base I don't feel too bad about that. I realise in theory you should specify the port you initiate construction in but this is a strategic game and i don't want that level of detail.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by TaoJah:

Well, IMHO you can debate on the HOMEBUILD options, especially for ships.

If there is a perfectly functioning port in Vichy France under German control and the Germans commision a new ship, they might as well build it there if they need it there.

What's the reasoning against it, except that it makes using new units harder ?

The reasoning is the logistics, you need the proper tools and infrastructure. Sure a port might have a shipyard, but not one designed to build a certain model of ship.

Also homebuilds makes sense, once a unit is ready it does not "pop up" in another country, it is formed on the homefront where you have an infrastructure to build them.

[Minty]

Problem with homebuilds is that it limits landunits too. I see no problem with raising or training land units, even panzers, elsewhere as they can operated easily or the factories , barracks etc can be easily built outside Germany which is just what the German did too, examples being the Skoda works in Czechoslovakia or Aircraft factories in Poland, or SS Divisions made up of local Belgiums and Norwegains. But not the capitol ships, it's not just a detail, The Bismarck and Tirpitz are the two hardest naval units in the game (assuming no further tech advances) and can swing the balance of power in the Med easily. Getting them there should be a challenge. The Royal Navy put huge resources into sinking the Bismarck when it came out to play and never kept fewer than 3 battleships at Skapa flow to prevent the Tirpitz from breaking out of the North sea.

On another note, Can we please have surface raiders? If a ship is in an enemy convoy it should be doing some serious damage, as much or more than subs. Again the Tirpitz and the Scharnhorst sank a lot of land lease going to the USSR.

[Blashy]

You're observation is accurate, but as you point out, those units are build in Poland, Czech, which is all possible with homebuilds on since it is considered German land.

Divisions built outside were not "formed" there, the initial training (basic training) or building were done in Germany. Simply, whatever was "built" outside of Germany was so minor overall that having the ability to have a full TANK group appear say on Moscow is trully unrealistic.

[Ottosmops]

Wouldn't it be a good idea, if the player had to nominate the starting location for his units at the moment, when he buys them?

(Apart from the difficulties to implement this in the program. )

For large ships it is clear, that they shouldn't 'jump around' while they are in the production queue.

What solution would be most realistic for land and air units?

[Iron Ranger]

Can someone give me a heads up, where is the HOME BUILDS option?

[Guest Mike]

Bismark & Tirpitz were both laid down in 1936 - I don't think the French would ahve been too keen on letting them be built at Marseilles....or then again they might, but they could, just possibly, have borrowed them uncompleted in 1939....

[rleete]

This just gave me an idea. It might be too difficult/time consuming to code for the few times it would be used, but it's something new.

If you want to build a large ship in a captured port, you would have to specify which port at the time of purchase. Say for BB and CA, but not subs. Just a pop-up screen: home build or not? Once the keel is laid, it can't be moved. This means you can't put a ship already under construction there, and if you lose the port, you lose the ship. Possibly recover some of the cost if the port is captured, because you wouldn't continue to ship materials and labor to the port any more?

Maybe (with the proper levels of intelligence), you could find out that the hull of a BB is being built in a port - consider it recon if a bomber is in range. Then, you could strategic bomb the port, and have a posibility of delaying the build.

Actually, this would be nice for all ships, and possibly even ground units. Imagine, the German player is barely holding out in the east, expecting the tank builds to turn the tide and push back the Russians. The Allies are poised for invasion. Just then, the Allied player makes a bold "Bridge Too Far" thrust, and captures the cities along the Rhur. There go the shiney new Tigers, and any hope of the Axis to extend the war.

[Chesster]

I second rleete's idea.