French insignia inverted

[Iriemon]

Hubert, the new graphics look great. But I think the French insignia is backward -- as depicted in this screenshot the insignia is a red dot inside a white circle inside a blue circle. That was the British insignia; the French was a blue dot inside a white circle inside a red circle.

I'd actually prefer the British insignia over the little crown, as you use the standard military insignia for the other nations.

http://www.battlefront.com/products/sc2/screenshots/pages/1_sc2-weiss2.html

Looking forward to the new game!

[Hubert Cater]

Thanks, this was caught earlier as well, but for some reason forgot to update the insignia

Hubert

[ September 29, 2005, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: Hubert Cater ]

[SeaMonkey]

And Hubert, not trying to be presumptuous, but on the large SC2 strategic map it looks as if El Agheila area is presented as a large city.

Wouldn't that be better/more historically represented as Benghazi, a little further north, up the coast and a small port facility also?

[Hubert Cater]

Good question, but I'll let Dave answer this one as this is his baby

[Desert Dave]

SM,

All cities on board are NOT created equal, true?

**[... also, the screenshots you see are NOT final, as has been duly noted, so some things may change... Benghazi instead? Who knows? But IF not, and since this would not be a CRITICAL impairment of a fairly faithful WW-2 outcome, you could change it in the Editor. See what happens that is different, yes?]

Paris is larger than Brest.

Moscow is larger than Minsk.

Berlin is larger than Frankfurt.

Etc, on & on.

El Aghiela is situated in a position that allows the BEST possible tactical, and the most accurate eventual results... for the North Afrikan campaign.

Besides, Cities are not merely actual factual aggregations of human beings.

They RE-present places where there are important military or political "objectives" or some Industry not already suggested by Mine Icons, or a vital cross-roads, etc,

And so, adhering to our KISS principal, all Cities, Towns, Villages, or Whistle-stops are of the same value.

It's all a matter of "acceptable perspective," as well as using an "abstracting imagination." :cool:

[Desert Dave]

Good question, but I'll let Dave answer this one as this is his baby

Ah, and very apparently,

I GOT your suggestion by way of... premonition,

ALL the way from Toronto to Desert City, USA.

Hmmm - 9 minutes behind,

That seems about how things usually go.

You gotta realize - Hubert

Is REALLY that fast!

You can hardly ever catch up! :cool:

[SeaMonkey]

Dave, I was not refering to your NA scenario as I understand why El Agheila will be used as an Axis base of operations for the smaller scale.

Being a big fan of AH's Afrika Korps and SPI's Panzer Armee Afrika, it goes without saying that El Agheila represents the Axis entry point and the Tripoli connection for those maps.

I was looking at the large, full scale SC2 map in the new screenshots which starts with USA in the west and the Caspian Sea in the east. This is where I noticed the El Agheila configuration and was assuming it was a shot from the SC scale we are most commonly familiar with. Sorry for jumping to conclusions, just trying to help out.

By the way, since the Med and in particularly NA is my favorite WW2 theater, I would be glad to contribute any historical data to your scenario if you feel lacking in any arena. Not that I would have all the answers, just a pretty decent library of reference materials. :cool:

[Desert Dave]

This is where I noticed the El Agheila configuration and was assuming it was a shot from the SC scale we are most commonly familiar with. Sorry for jumping to conclusions, just trying to help out.

SM,

It IS a shot from the default '39 Campaign Game.

El Aghiela IS placed there for all the reasons I stated above (... though, it yet COULD be Benghazi, we'll see - does anyone else NOT like a smaller City in amongst mostly larger ones?), which apply in both the small and larger scaled scenarios, IMHO.

By the way, since the Med and in particularly NA is my favorite WW2 theater, I would be glad to contribute any historical data to your scenario if you feel lacking in any arena. Not that I would have all the answers, just a pretty decent library of reference materials.

Hey!

I appreciate that... I've got quite a few reference materiels too, as that is also my own favorite theatre, along with "Battle of the Atlantic."

IF I have some either-way possible situations I am contemplating, or some other pertinent question... do I have your e-mail address? I'll surely "borrow" some of your expertise. :cool:

[SeaMonkey]

Ok I got it DD on that El Agheila thing, though I'm not sure I'm in agreement.

There should be a base and fortifications, but IMO, the port facility should be at Tripoli, representing the long Axis supply line. Most of the heavy equipment(reinforcements, replacements, supplies) for the Panzer Armee came through Tripoli.

Benghazi and Tobruk are obviously other considerations(minor port facilities) when conquered and fully repaired or enhanced(engineers?) and should represent supply depots at minimum.

As far as that expertise thing :confused: , can't say I qualify there, but I most definitely will help, and the Lord knows I always have an opinion , long as you realize what its worth.

It would be my honor to assist you .

bradtap@aol.com

[SeaMonkey]

Ok DD, I'm going to think aloud here and I may be way off base, not knowing the mechanisms that guide SC2 gameplay, please excuse my nonsense.

IMO, there should be a need for at least two Axis HQs for a viable supply link in NA(one Italian, one German). Three would be better and represent the committment necessary for success that the Axis never made.

This link should become tenacious as the Axis reach out towards Mechili and provide a necessary capitulation of any Allied forces garrisoning Benghazi, to re-establish a good supply base for continuing offensive operations towards and past Tobruk.

Again as the Axis reach out to Mersa Matruh and El Alamein the supply line should become almost untenable without the third Axis HQ and definitely dictate a storming of Tobruk and perhaps Bardia could provide some degree of supply if it is captured(to make things work), again not sure of the SC2 supply features.

Next would be Alexandria and so forth and so on, I know you know what I mean. The whole idea, using SC1 supply mechanics, is to simulate that devoid of offensive operations that occurred in WW2 desert actions when the supply lines became extended. You know, ole HC did a pretty good job of it in SC1 and the HQs' supply parameters made it very realistic and simple. Love those KISS principles :cool: .

[Desert Dave]

SeaMonkey, stranded on land:

There should be a base and fortifications, but IMO, the port facility should be at Tripoli, representing the long Axis supply line.

Problem being... WITHOUT a city in between Tripoli and Tobruk, the Afrika Korps and WDF, or Western Desert Force, both have a difficult time sustaining any offensives due to the supply rules.

And, remember those cities from which you draw supply are only "size-5" in Libya.

And, you have the "Malta Effect" which will occasionally REDUCE supply to the Libyan outpost even further... re-presenting the Allied "patrol craft" that often sunk supply & troop ships.

Well, you CAN make a "chain" of HQ's, but the SECOND HQ in the chain does NOT pass on supply benefits to units beyond it. It is only "in best possible supply status" - itself.

Therefore, whoever controls Tobruk has a major advantage in all of those hot hostile desert sands.

Which is NOT desired, since FM Rommel, for instance, did not even take Tobruk first time around (... not until June of 1942 actually), he just by-passed it.

So. Some city is necessary, IMHO, BETWEEN Tripoli and Alexandria, OTHER than Tobruk.

Thus... El Aghiela.

Which admittedly is SMALLER than MOST other cities on the map, though there are some others, as with Trondheim, which serve a specific "strategic" purpose.

It COULD be Benghazi, as you suggest, with or without a Port facility, BUT... IF you are intending to be accurate in map placement, that particular City would be TOO CLOSE to Tobruk, and would not give each side a fair opportunity to "go with the flow."

This Desert Campaign has been likened - by many field commanders and Historians, to a "war at sea," in that there was a LOT of blitz & surround and retreat and re-gain ground, etc.

Therefore, we TRY to model that in a way that is faithful to the REAL supply problems that were faced.

[SeaMonkey]

Understandable DD, after reviewing the map again, it seemed apparent why you chose El Agheila, makes sense.

I kind of anticipated your response and was doing some research on the proper links necessary to provide an offensively inclined supply net. I had forgotten about the SC supply rule regarding the second HQ, perhaps we can get HC to amend that rule, perhaps it is to late or there are other consequences not immediately apparent to the game mechanics. What with the bigger map, it may be an appropriate change for HQ supply model.

Anyway, you are correct, Benghazi is to close to Tobruk and with only Tripoli as the supply point it leaves an approximate 600 mile vacancy without El Agheila. Come to think of it, its still about 400 miles from Tripoli to El Agheila, isn't that kind of far to support offensive actions in Tripolitania? Now I know there were not historical combat actions of any consequence in Tripolitania, but it does present a potential as one of Rommel's first orders was to provide defensive positions in the Beurat area awaiting the arrival of 15th Panzer.

Obviously as this is our favorite theater and it was somewhat neglected in SC1, we are looking for a better balance, something to enhance combat operations in the area. Personally I always thought the theater provided a potential area to pressure the UK into peace negotiations before Barbarossa, if the Axis(Hitler) had paid more attention.

Ok, so more of my nonsense. Since there will be some 5 supply point towns that will suffer due to the "Malta" effect, maybe we should have more of them, Sirte for example(the actual 6 weeks training ground for the original AK deployment). The Axis will need to neutralize the Malta effect anyway to be successful and in conjunction with El Agheila(also a 5) give some credence for offensive operations in that area and bridge that 400 mile gap.

Then Benghazi as a 10 along with Tobruk to support the Gazala area "Cauldron " battles. That still leaves a rather long gap to Alexandria(a 10) from Tobruk, maybe a 5 somewhere in between, like Sidi Barrani or Mersa Matruh as the stepping stone for this most significant lead up to the real prize, Suez Canal(Port Said) and Cairo, and the gateway to the ME. In fact I believe that Mersa Matruh was an actual railhead from the Alexandria/Suez area and may warrant a higher supply value. Even though the historical postions for these map points are known, a slight modification of their locations is always at the designer's discretion to make game mechanics work.

Well as usual I may be over complicating a rather simple fix you have already worked out and of course there is always that most powerful editor. I'll try to suppress those historical urges in the future :cool: .