Terif - Denmark Question

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Terif:

You forget that US and russian income is tied to their activation percentage and so they are not only coming in earlier, but also get more mpps each turn during the years they are neutral - so Germany gets perhaps 432 mpps/2 years (27 turns are 2 years ), but Allies in average >900 .

I've done alot of only DoW on Benelux only before USA and USSR are in.

After they join, I've DoW: Tunisia, Syria, Iraq (if they don't join after Syria is taken), Vichy France, Vichy Algeria, Portugal (if Spain has joined), Greece and Denmark.

I find it gamey, there should be repercussion for going on a rampage like that from other minors.

[Lars]

What other minors? You pretty much invaded them all.

[Blashy]

Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Iran and Turkey.

Not much left, but if you see the Axis going ALL out like that, it becomes obvious they are out for world domination.

[Sombra]

Originally posted by Blashy:

Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Iran and Turkey.

Not much left, but if you see the Axis going ALL out like that, it becomes obvious they are out for world domination.

Would be interessting to play aginst you sometimes. I Dont see how you can spare the troops after Barbarossa starts to conquer all these nations. At least the minors should react if a hungry monster Germany attacks one neighbor then another.. Perhaps building up more garrisons?

Another question what do you invade these nations for? Arent these troopps better deployed in Rusia? What do you do if if Spain doest join you?

Perhpas it would be possible to include some strategic incentives for Germany to conquer certain nations for example if you conquer sweden Axis cuts artic convoy to the UDSSR.

[ June 23, 2006, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Sombra ]

[Blashy]

1- You only need 3 Italian armies to invade each of these countries and no Corps to man them.

If you see that Spain will most likely not join the best thing to do is bring your Axis fleet in the MED. This way you have German and Italian navy securing the Gibraltar area. Those navies are not gonna last in the Atlantic versus a decent player so if they have to come to you with not as good a supply and you have a jump on them, it will most likely negat the Allies player from entering the MED.

It leaves you free to not man any of those conquered countries.

So, I invade them for the mpps of course, hehe.

You do have to man Casablanca but that is pretty easy to defend.

[rclawson007]

The king of Norway managed to flee the counrty to England and then the US...along with the Norwegian National Treasury. A very large sum in Gold, though I cannot remember the actual value. Also, the Germans formed an SS division from the remnants of the Norwegian Army predisposed to side with the Axis, or more accurately anyone against Russia. Perhaps a random chance for a larger MPP surrender bonus (invading profit/cost is now a variable and may pay off) to represent the King not slipping through the Germans grasp. Also, after the surrender, create 1 or 2 Norwegian corps to help with Garrison duty. This would make the Norway a true Gambit and keep it in play.

[rclawson007]

As for Denmark, simply allow the Allied fleet to pass by Copenhagen if not Axis controlled. Now there is military incentive to take it. Even if the MPP benefit/cost ratio is not great...or neutral.

[Cary]

As I recall, the German invasion of Norway was an off-the cuff reaction to Allied schemes in Scandinavia. (The most hare-brained of which was an attempt to get Swedish assent to free passage for Western European troops to aid the Finns against Stalin -- in this case the free world may owe the Swedes a certain unrecognized debt for their intransigence!)

Perhaps it should be part of allied strategy to be forcing a German invasion? Checking the scripts on this now...

[ June 23, 2006, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Cary ]

[rclawson007]

I've been playing around with creating some motivation for the Germans to take Norway. Changing Denmark to Allied (0%) and Iceland to Allied (0%) allows for Iceland behavior to be governed by the Diplomacy scripts rather than the surrender scripts. Thus Icelnad can be set to get a large activation (say 60% - 85% pro Allied) if Axis declare war on Denmark. Thus, the allies can still get the Iceland MPP, but they have to make some effort. The main problem with Norway is that even after Germany takes Norway, their MPP/turn gain stays the same (including the seasonal effects on the convoy). Unfortunately, each minor can have but a single convoy script. At present there is no option to have multiple scripts with different conditions. If this were the case, one could create a second convoy route through Copenhagen. Then the conquest of both would double the Axis MPP from Norway. Only 15/turn difference. Maybe not sufficient motiavtion to take Norway, but certainly better than the ZERO gain at present. Maybe the next patch will include support for multiple convoy scripts and just use the first one triggered like many of other scripts - or else global variable referencing in the convoy scripts so the Norway resource benefit can be tied to Axis strategic plan.

[ June 23, 2006, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: rclawson007 ]

[TaoJah]

The first decision in the game should be : do you do a Sealion, everything depends on that.

If you do, you should take Denmark and Norway too for the extra ports. And, yes, it's true that they give the US and the USSR a bumb, but those two only enter the war years later. And you get the MPPs NOW.

Plus, taking Norway is basically a tranfer of MPPs from Italy to Germany : it takes 3 Italian corps to garrison Norway and Germany gets 35 MPP per turn. that's a good deal IMHO. You got to do a Sealion, though, because else the port gets bombed.

[R.J.]

Originally posted by Sombra:

At least the minors should react if a hungry monster Germany attacks one neighbor then another.. Perhaps building up more garrisons?

I like that idea. After all, from 1940 on minor nations aren't going to be just sitting around hoping Adolf respects their neutrality. They're going to be mobilizing and training. So if in 1940, Norway (and other minors) has only 3-strength corps, in 1941 they should be 10-strength with 1 experience. '42 – 10 strength armies, or something along those lines.

Plus, if the Norwegian King got out with much of the treasury in 1940, plunder should reduce over time as well (as nations prepare for an invasion).

And perhaps add some diplomatic 'drift' toward the Allies for both Norway and Sweden over time (so that the Axis lose the convoys) if they aren't 'threatened' – ie troops in Denmark or Sweden threaten Norway, troops in Norway threaten Sweden.

[Liam]

In my games, I rarely ever conquored Norway and only Denmark because I wanted the Naval base.. That is one flipside for Germany if she goes Naval, the extra naval base is handy for Sea Lion and for upgrading repairing, aphib ops etc...

Terif is right the cost of Conquest isn't always worth it, You can do as well if you just plan ahead, to conquest after the USA and USSR enter.. they aren't mobile to hurt you right away anyways

now if Plunder improved that would be different but a Plunder game would return to the ole days

[rclawson007]

Germany does not get 35 MPP/turn for taking Norway. Their MPP gain is still governed by the convoy scripts. There is no benefit unless the Allies play diplo chits to get Norway pro-allied in which case the convoy stops altogether.

[Cary]

Seems to me that the allies might be well advised to play diplo chits in Norway. All it takes is one hit to shut off the convoy or force the Germans to invade.

AFAICS not a bad investment of French MPPs, but maybe I underestimate the French.

[Sombra]

Besides the direct benefits of MPs I would like to see other strategic incentives to take ceratin neutral countries.

-For example if bombers and surface ships could raid to some degree convoy routes. Taking Norway could be important to cut the artic convoy route giving an incentive for both sides to take it.

-Taking neutrals countries could increase the force pool of the invader.

-Greece could secretly helping supply the english foces in Egypt . As long as Greece is neutral or allied supply in Alexandria could be eight instead of 5.

- Taking Greece could increase the activation of Turkey towards the allies (random event)

- Neutral countires could supply from a certain activation point on (60%) MPS to one side. (Symbol to good relations and trade agreements)

- Random chances that neutral countires change their activation status randomly even without direct diplomatic influences.

- From 60 % activation point on player could move country forces and use MPS to increase strengh of garrisons( but can´t attack the country anymore)

Perhaps we can come up with more simple ideas to give real benefits to take countires like Greece, Norway etc.

Why it si important: Right now Axis simply will wait because they dont want to increase rusian and american war readiness.

[hellraiser]

I only viewed taking Denmark as an extra morale booster (together with Benelux) prior to hitting France. Getting those 2 countries before starting hitting the french, makes it impossible for french armies/tank to counter attack immediately, due to the morale loss.

Long ago, I had a chat with Yoda who was the first to realize that Denmark ain't needed at all. True, who can't get France anyway? The lack of Iceland bomber will make the allies maintain some ships in the North Atlantic, otherwise axis navy can Slip past iceland's shores, unnoticed. You surely, as an allied player, don't want those US transport to get intercepted by an uboat pack running silent in the Atlantic, do you...

As for the cash loss from Denmark...no big deal, really.

Now, with or without Denmark, ore shipment from Norway can be disrupted - bomber from England hitting Kiel port (the destination of the convoy).

Regarding Skando invasion - especially with hard build on, it is almost a game loser for Axis. You really need every available damn corps in Russia. I wouldn't do it not even with soft build on, really. I'd rather get Sweden (after USA is in), no need to garrison nothing there. The incentive of taking the whole Skando is there - if you establish the link skando -> Berlin via Leningrad choke point, the resources go up to 8. But with hard limits, germany's problem is not the cash but the limits

[Maverik]

Sombra,

I particularly like the following:

-Taking neutrals countries could increase the force pool of the invader.

Something like 300,000 foreign troops served in the Waffen SS. Although this was later in the war they could be included in the build pools immediately as it would take some time for Germany to use up it’s whole pool. For the allies it also makes sense as most countries would be liberated and therefore the population would want to fight. This would be a good incentive to take minors.

But I think the deterrent goes away once all the major players are in. In the case of Germany there is a double incentive in that captured countries reduce Russian Moral. This is something I’m not entirely happy with.

Perhaps removing the moral loss once all major players are in (unless a major is captured or a country liberated) might make taking minors less attractive.

[Rolend]

Hummm very interesting thread. It makes perfect since not to invade Denmark until after the US and Russia enter the war. Once Russia and the US are in the war then take Denmark, you get the MPP and the moral loss for the Russians. I know this is gamey but it sure makes since.

I agree something needs to be done to encourage the Axies to at least look at Denmark and Norway but I would not want to see it become a must do thing. So how to give Germany incentive without making it must do, very fine balancing act there.

[Lars]

Take out the bump to readiness at the very least. Then you can at least justify taking Denmark for the port. Also, Iceland shouldn't contribute anything to the Allies other than a place for the Bomber.