US Starting forces, leaders, & cash, what's the deal?

[jon_j_rambo]

Just got done reading the other thread where Blashy writes the USA (starting) only gets 2-armies, 1-corp, & a couple of ships just building, is this true? Are the MMPs for the USA ramped up over time? Where's the Atlantic fleet? Are there destroyers? Convoy ships? What's the scoop? Will my Uncle be represented in the Battle of Atlantic properly? Where's the bombers? Is Patton made the best US HQ?

[Blashy]

Rambo, I just told you in that thread that when USA Joined I had 2 HQs and 8 armies all level 3 infantry weapons and level 2-3 motorization.

Add in 2 free battleships, 1 free cruiser (from the production queue).

AND I had 4 corps, one on each american city.

You can't expect to be ready for D-Day the minute they join, it took them over 3 years.

With that said, 2 HQs and 8 armies with great tech, seems like a good force to hold up in France.

And then you can start buying 1 army with tech every turn with USA MPPs.

What more do you want? USA joins and has 2 bombers with nuclear bombs?

[NumLock]

Only if Germany starts with level 5 jets.

I suppose that a few corps would accuratly repersent the condition of the US army at the time, but what about the Atlantic Fleet?

[Guest Mike]

What are 2 battleships and a cruiser? Scotch mist??

[jon_j_rambo]

In the production queue? So USA has no ships?

[JerseyJohn]

Rule of thumb, it took two years to make a large aircraft carrier at that time, three years for a battleship, a year for a heavy cruiser and so on down the line.

The United States started it's naval reconstruction program in 1939 and 1940, which is why the United Stats Pacific Fleet became so overwhelmingly powerful all at once in late 1942.

If those ships had been begun later, they wouldn't have been ready till 1943 or 1944, and even with the victory at Midway it would have been almost impossible for the United States to have launched it's great Pacific offensives as it would have lacked the naval resources.

Anyway, I didn't catch the production lengths for capital ships in SC-2. There should be a way of reflecting that those vessels were being produced and would appear at the appropriate times. Maybe they aren't in the production box, but make a scheduled appearance at the time they entered service? No idea -- but this is a good point to be elaborated on.

[jon_j_rambo]

Question: True or False, in January 1945, the United States had more planes than pilots.

[JerseyJohn]

I'm sure that's true; the United States, in addition to it's own needs, was producing aircraft, tanks, trucks and everything else for the UK, China, Russia, France and everyone else fighting the Axis everywhere on earth.

By 1945 the United States was throwing aircraft over the sides of ships in mid-ocean to avoid the paperwork involved in bringing them back stateside. We did the same thing with tanks and millions of tons of ammunition.

There's no comparrison between what the U. S. had in 1945, or 1943 for that matter, and what it had in 1939-40 and even 1941.

Napoleon's old warning about China being a sleeping giant that should not be disturbed was a dozen times truer regarding the United States. In 1942 it probably produced more war material than Japan had produced in the preceeding twenty years!

Nobody, not even the Japanese or Germans, doubted the ability of the U. S. to produce gargantuan amounts of everything relating to war. What they doubted was the will of the American people to actually fight a protracted and bloody war. Germany had the same doubts in World War One.

Hitler's prewar plan had been to conquer or control all of Europe and European Russia before challenging the United States after a period of peaceful consolodation. That time was be used in building a powerful ocean navy utilizing captured warships and completing those already under construction when Britain and France either fell or were forced into the Axis. Once the war got under way he switched gears and, eventually did exactly what he always swore he wouldn't be forced into, a protracted two front war.

Anyway, going on about figures of what the United States did or didn't have in 1945 is pointless. It had more of everything than the rest of the warring countries -- combined!

This shouldn't come as too much of a shock. Aside from being the greatest industrial power, it was the only major industrial nation that hadn't been directly ravaged by the fighting.

[Hubert Cater]

"Anyway, I didn't catch the production lengths for capital ships in SC-2. There should be a way of reflecting that those vessels were being produced and would appear at the appropriate times. Maybe they aren't in the production box, but make a scheduled appearance at the time they entered service? No idea -- but this is a good point to be elaborated on."

This is pretty much the system we are using for a few unit types and countries

[JerseyJohn]

Great! Thanks, Hubert.

I think this is a good solution for numerous reasons as, depending upon the situation, it gives the option of locking factors into the game.

In the ship construction sense, it would hold the United States to it's prewar naval production decisions. Meanwhile, the current national product can be allotted on other items, not necessarily naval, that the player might decide he wants, or needs, more urgently than warships.

[Hubert Cater]

Correct

[jon_j_rambo]

Call my Uncle & ask him if there were Battlships in 1940 sailing in the Atlantic.

[JerseyJohn]

What's his number?

Okay, the United States assigned the old drednaught Texas to the Caribean. I'm not sure what else was on the Atlantic side.

In the Pacific, an Iowa Class BB, which was the newest at the time (9x16" main guns) sailed into Pearl Harbor while the old BBs were still smoldering. It was a big morale booster but little else till more BBs and heavy cruisers were put into commision.

Anyway, what's your point in asking the question? The United States had a two ocean navy even before WWII, but it was being modernized and added to in 1940-41. The new ships began joining the fleet from late '41 onwards.

One of Admiral Kimmel's big complaints was that too many ships were being sent to the Atlantic while he was being left with a skeleton force that couldn't have won against the Japanese.

The Atlantic coast was primarily guarded by coastal batteries. Ten miles from my house is Sandy Hook, which had a key battery guarding New York Harbor, and in the harbor itself was Fort Hamilton, with another battery of coastal artillery. After the start of the war they were considered obsolete because aircraft were able to do the same job more effectively.

Anyway, I hate to ask this, but what's the point being made here?

[SeaMonkey]

Rambo is going to make a point?

OK JJR, let me help you out. Sorry, had a little trouble contacting your uncle, but I did get a hold of John Ellis.

Upon USA entry, 12-7-41: CVs=8, BBs=17, CAs=36, DDs=171, & SSs=112, of course some of these are inoperable after PH.

[Blashy]

And remember, one BBs in SC is not ONE BB, it is a representation of a fleet.

Just like one tank is not ONE tank.

[Kuniworth]

Originally posted by Blashy:

Just like one tank is not ONE tank.

It is'nt?

[Liam]

I think what was brought up here is good. Pre-War the USA was Isolated and not producing what it could it was focused on other things. During the War opening up it was actually a boom to our economy. It changed us from a second rate power to a premier power militarily. What I think Rambo wants notice of and was mentioned by John is that the USA Produced a buttload of ammunition, ships, tanks, aircraft, technology, etc... Everything from the Manhattan project to roughly what the same amount of tanks as Russia? To boot, we produced the best aircraft in the World......When the Japanese bombed Pearl, they only allowed us to scrap the old junk ships to replace them with new modern ones. It did take us time for mobilisation and had FDR known I think he would've pushed harder mobilizing. Perhaps what would be interesting here is if the USA War Readiness jumps too high too early to balance out German tech, so does her production That would be reflective of USA war preparedness which was weak at the beginning of her entry but was underway... Once underway she was more a match for the USSR than Germany... Only those two puppies could've competed and only on Land we'd of whooped them at Sea...

We don't want an instant D-Day but if the Germans think they can just Neutral hop there should be a consequence. The UK and US Forces combined shouldn't enter the frey too early either. It wasn't just being prepared that worried the Allies. Torch, Sicily, Italy before D-Day was all undertaken, so was a messed up commando attack on France, totally ruined... We wanted low casualties... In SC we don't worry about casaulties only about victory while during the War Years it was the opposite. So reflective perhaps since the USA is a very casualty conscious nation we should put a Man Power Penalty on her say that Russia wouldn't have or Germany might not have being very expanionsist psychotic nations who just want to win if it cost 90% of their 18-35 year old boys...

I'm just thinking creatively

[Blashy]

You'll worry about casualties in SC2, MPPs are too scarce and loosing a unit means a wait in the production queue.

USA won't be able to start D-Day when it joins.

The Tech I had was with NON consumable chits, it was an error on my part. I would have had the units, but not such a high level of tech.

[jon_j_rambo]

Point is, my Uncle served & fought in the Battle of the Atlantic. I'm tired of this 2-ship pieces crap & 180 MMPs for the United States. All you historical fanatics like stroking each other with Manstein...well, it's time the United States get the cash, ships, equipment, bombers, fighters, etc...to historical level Hitler's Germany.

I agree that in '40 USA didn't have squat, but that's because we were chilling.

"What were you thinking? Haven't you heard of Ford & General Motors!" --- Webster, in Band of Brothers, yelling to a defeated Bunta General.

I don't expect to have D-Day in '42. But I do expect more than two ship pieces for the war & NO SUPPLY! Allied fleets are worthless in the SC supply model in the MedFront unless it's a one turn surprise.

What's the deal with Naval Supply?

"You know why we're going to lose the war? Because the Americans have fuel to send fresh cake!" --- Col. Hessler explaining to Wolfgang in the movie, Battle of the Bulge.

[Blashy]

2 ships are not just TWO ships. Do you understand that?

It represents a group.

Germany does not have 57 u-boats at the start of the game. The 3 uboats you start with represents those 57.

[JerseyJohn]

I'll be back a few months after the game comes out. The discussions were interesting for a while but there's no point getting bogged down in this nonsense again. And really, I'm very tired of being called a history nut because I think the scenarios should represent reality instead of Hollywood.

[jon_j_rambo]

@Blashy --- Do you understand in English that I wrote "two ship pieces" deliberately & not "two ships"? Listen kid, do you understand how many tons of military equipment the United States produced & delivered to both wars combined? Giving the United States a fleet the 1/3 the size of Italy is a joke. Then throw the US Navy's supply is a joke. Then compare Italy's to the US's MMP ratio, another joke.

[jon_j_rambo]

Seriously, do you people understand how SC-1 plays for the United States? There's a conspiracy or something going on.

@Sir Jersey --- Why are taking potshots at the US War movie industry? If you don't like the movies, then don't watch them.

[ November 11, 2005, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: jon_j_rambo ]

[JerseyJohn]

On way off for a rest but pausing at the door.

-- Brother Rambo, we went through this dozens of times during the past two years. The representation for the United States is of what was left over after the country finishes allotting for everything else. Historically that would be things like:

Liberty Ships

Lendlease to the UK, USSR, China, Free French and anyone else fighting the Axis anywhere on earth

The Manhattan Project

Also the cost of completely retooling American industry from a peace economy to a total war economy. Germany didn't do that till 1944 or it's MPPs would also be higher.

Aside from all this, the United States can produce about as much as it actually used in the European Theater.

-- I also think part of the reason for the low US MPP is the amount of production that was consumed in shipping and supplying both air and ground units to fight across the Atlantic. The Navy was also a huge drain as both U. S. and British vessels needed to go to United States harbors for major overhauls. The British BB Rodney, for example, firing all nine of it's forward placed 16" monsters at Bismark, loosened every nut and bolt on the ship and had to go to Boston for repairs -- Britain had too many shortages to tend to her own fleet. And that example is from six months before the United States even entered the war.

The part about Italy I not only agree with, but have always agreed with.

-- The first thread I started at this forum, in Oct of 02, was about the absurdity of the Axis crossing the Atlantic and doing anything against the United States. Hitler did have plans along those lines, but they were for after all of Europe had been conquered and it's production turned to Axis purposes; which in that case would have meant the construction of a huge ocean going navy. Admiral Raeder's speculation on this was that it wouldn't be accomplished till about 1950 and at that only through utilizing every large pre-war hull laid down in the UK, France, Italy and Germany.

-- The only argument regarding your original point about U. S. production, would be if the United States didn't need to commit large forces to the Pacific. The problem is, it would have done that even if Japan hadn't attacked Pearl harbor. Part of the pre-war naval building program was the setting up of bases all over the west coast, from Southern California to the Aleutians, and of naval and air bases on Pacific Islands.

That, along with the Pacific Fleet move from San Diego to Hawaii in 1940, became major reasons for Japan's attack. The United States was making itself a Pacific power while levelling embargoes on Japan.

[JerseyJohn]

Originally posted by jon_j_rambo:

@Sir Jersey --- Why are taking potshots at the US War movie industry? If you don't like the movies, then don't watch them.

Brother Rambo, I was watching them long before you were born so please don't tell me what to watch and what not to watch. Especially as I don't do that to you or anybody else.