The Demo Is Here!! Who's Played It?

[pzgndr]

I have to get used to the small - no name - buttons on the side.

When you mouse over a menu button, its name appears at the top of the screen. After a little while, you learn which button is what.

[vveedd]

Ok. Here are my first impressions about the demo. Playing map and units are a little bit colored and confusing but ok, I will adjust, no problem. What I really would like to see is – When I open strategic map I would like with double click on some spot jump back to playing map on that spot (options like Panzer General 2 have if you are remember). It is a one little thing but it will help a lot to my humble opinion. Never the less, game will be great (I have been telling that all the time on this forum).

And one question – How can I attack with ships unit in cities? Every time I hit MPP’s instead of units.

[ April 05, 2006, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: vveedd ]

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

Will experiment lots more in the coming days, perhaps try adding an AI script (if its not there yet) for UK Navy to blockade North Atlantic at start of war to prevent Axis conquest of Iceland say 25% of the time or have UK send Corps to Iceland.

Hehe, take Iceland, there is a cost to taking it ...

[ April 05, 2006, 06:04 AM: Message edited by: Blashy ]

[Blashy]

Originally posted by vveedd:

.

And one question – How can I attack with ships unit in cities? Every time I hit MPP’s instead of units.

This is automatic. You can't "target" units. You bombared the city and you have a % chance of hiting the target.

Remember that you are miles offshore, who knows where those units are in the city and they are most likely bunkered down, so you are less likely to hit them.

[Edwin P.]

Originally posted by John DiFool the 2nd:

I'm a tad disappointed in the Battle of the Atlantic.

Just like in SC1 my 2 subs out there didn't survive

very long-and the third one, which got knocked down

to one strength point, mysteriously vanished off the

map during my opponent's turn (after I had sailed

it back into the safety of the Baltic). I think I'll

have to tweak the dive percentage in favor of the

U-boats else they will just get slaughtered, or at

best suffer a severe negative MPP deficit.

Interesting, I found just the opposite playing against the Allied AI. In three quick games (2 with FOW on, 1 with FOW off) I sunk 4 to 6 allied surface ships in the Atlantic before the demo ended. Axis losses were 0 to 2 fleets.

D-Day scenario was good but I was unsure what the victory conditions were or how long the scenario lasted.

[ April 05, 2006, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Hubert Cater]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

I have to get used to the small - no name - buttons on the side.

While I wanted to add a popup description for the button functions on the right hand side button menu bar it unfortunately got pushed to the bottom of my list with everything else that needed to be done. In the mean time, and although it has not immediately stood out, the button function name actually appears in the middle section of information bar at the top of the screen whenever you move the mouse over a button.

Will experiment lots more in the coming days, perhaps try adding an AI script (if its not there yet) for UK Navy to blockade North Atlantic at start of war to prevent Axis conquest of Iceland say 25% of the time or have UK send Corps to Iceland.

Unfortunately manually editing the scripts will have no effect as the scripts need the Editor to recompile and store them within the campaign file. The actual script text was more or less left in with the Demo just for everyone to see what is going on under the hood.

Hubert

[Hubert Cater]

Originally posted by Edwin P.

D-Day scenario was good but I was unsure what the victory conditions were or how long the scenario lasted.

This is something I will be adding as a future enhancement

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John DiFool the 2nd:

I'm a tad disappointed in the Battle of the Atlantic.

Just like in SC1 my 2 subs out there didn't survive

very long-and the third one, which got knocked down

to one strength point, mysteriously vanished off the

map during my opponent's turn (after I had sailed

it back into the safety of the Baltic). I think I'll

have to tweak the dive percentage in favor of the

U-boats else they will just get slaughtered, or at

best suffer a severe negative MPP deficit.

Interesting, I found just the opposite playing against the Allied AI. In three quick games (2 with FOW on, 1 with FOW off) I sunk 4 to 6 allied surface ships in the Atlantic before the demo ended. Axis losses were 0 to 2 fleets.

</font>

[Sombra]

I think we should play a little bit with SC2 between humans to see if either side has a real advantage in teh battle of the Atlantic

[Edwin P.]

Originally posted by Hubert Cater:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Edwin P.

D-Day scenario was good but I was unsure what the victory conditions were or how long the scenario lasted.

This is something I will be adding as a future enhancement</font>

[Hubert Cater]

John,

Edwin may have just found a current method into baiting the Allied AI navy but I can certainly make an adjustment for that as necessary. Agreed with Sombra though that a human player is not likely to make the same mistakes as an AI and from what the multiplayer testing has shown, and we've had multiplayer testing for well over a year now, while not necessarily every time, and depending on player style and doctrine, the battle of the Atlantic can certainly be a long drawn out affair.

[Edwin P.]

FYI - in the demo, here how I baited/sunk AI fleets.

Case 1 - In first game with FOW on, evaded AI ships by sailing north and then west. German Fleet safely reached Iceland. Sent sub south to convoy route. AI responded with 1 (or 2) ships, sunk, then 2 ships, sunk, then 1 ship sunk. No Axis loses. Axis ships retreated to Iceland to repair to 8 and then repeated. Problem was that AI responded too quickly and without massing a fleet to face an unknown or known threat. A human player would never make this mistake, and would probably move air units to Canada to help spot any axis units. Once the AI saw that there were 4 or 5 Axis naval units off the coast of Canada it should not have sent in ships 1 or 2 at a time. It should have massed a counter fleet and then moved in for the kill.

PS: In the first Game I did not know where the UK fleet was, just lucky to avoid it by sailing straight north.

PS: Key was being able to repair ships in Iceland. If Axis had not taken Iceland (or UK had invaded and garrisonned it as it historically did) this would not have been possible.

Case 2 - With FOW off, (now I saw where the Allied Ships were). Conquered Norway. Moved Air units West coast of Norway and Axis fleet to west coast with transports shielding the fleet. Moved subs in Atlantic towards Norway.

AI attacked transports with 2 Allied units and did no or minimal damage (I don't recall which). 1 AI surfce ship attacked a German sub which dived. 2 attacking units sunk by combined Air and Naval attack. Remaining ship retreated. Allied AI sent forth 2 more surface ships from the south, which were sunk. Damaged Axis ships retreated to Norwegian ports along the west coast for repair, etc. Then sallied forth to sink Allied Carrier which was waiting next to a port tile.

Problem was that once more the AI did not mass for a counter attack. But sent in units piecemeal even when it saw number of Axis Naval and Air units in the area. Also it attacked transports before combat surface ships.

Despite this, it looks as if the Naval Game in SC2 will be far more interesting both for single and multiplayer with the much larger ocean and the ability to run silent. As HC said, enhancements to the AI scripts should take care of this.

[ April 05, 2006, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Hubert Cater]

Thanks I'll take a look

[Desert Dave]

I'm not sure how much tweaking I can do with that-I can increase dive percentage and lower the attack factors for both sides I guess. I don't want to lower them too far because the Germans did take a pretty nice toll of British BBs and CVs so I'm not sure how to balance all that.

JdF2,

You CAN do enough.

I have done it so in my own mod.

Though, several times now you've mentioned how you can change the dive %

Well, as of now

Anyhow, you cannot, that's hard-coded.

You'll be able to balance

Your cherished "Battle of the Atlantic,"

(... also my favorite aspect

of WW-2 GS gaming as well, along

with North Afrikan campaign)

Given that most remarkable Editor,

I have... NO doubt.

The FUN of it all is... NOT

Knowing EVERYTHING

Right this very minute!

Rather,

Then you've got the golden game in hand,

Discovering new! nuances

Over the course of months.

Years, even.

I am STILL finding better ways to play

After all this invested testing time.

I think we should play a little bit with SC2 between humans to see if either side has a real advantage in teh battle of the Atlantic

Yep, Sombra,

There is quite a difference when playing

Head to head.

Trying to balance the game so that

You can effectively have BOTH, IE,

VS the AI, and H-to-H,

Perform, ah, "generally admirably"

(... if by land, air or if by sea)

Is a bit of a tricky business,

But,

Nary any problem really,

There is plenty of room to maneuver

(... literally and figuratively)

WRT to getting VERY close

To your SOLO preference,

And also,

The heavy competitor's ideal.

Not only through your own devise,

But some eventual "enhancements"

Which will certainly arrive

Then the "schooled consensus"

Has been reached. :cool:

[Edwin P.]

Another Naval AI comment - Replayed at FOW OFF - (Turn4)UK AI retreated 2 UK Naval ships (Str 10 and 9) from Battle with German fleets and in same turn sent 2 aother ships (at Str 10 and 10) forward to engage the same Axis German Fleets after having lost 1 carrir and 1 surface ship in prior turns with no sunk Axis units. UK lost another ship, no German ships sunk (damaged yes, sunk no).

At simplest level AI should have: 1) attacked with all 4 warships or 2) not attacked.

At a more advanced level AI should have 3) attacked with all 4 warships and sent ship from London North to reinforce UK fleet or 4) Amassed a single great fleet to sink the Axis Navy or 5) sent all units North - including Air units to engage Axis fleet.

[Edwin P.]

Played through by attacking Russia early, and moving in the Med.

Motorization tech really has a big impact in Russia. Huge jump in Russian production once they are at war.

In Med and Atlantic Allied Navy much more active that it was in Sc1. The Quatra depression really limits the Axis advance and gives the Allies a chance for a defense.

I like the events that reinforce the allies in the Middle east.

Am used to the new interface.

Impressed by the different costs to research different techs. Some techs such as Anti-Air and Intel cost less. Others more. Nice balance.

I like the movement after combat; for naval and land units, and the bonus given to units that attack before moving.

Much to ponder this week. Well worth it. Much impressed by the features and simplicity.

Your tech choices can have a really big impact on your strategy in this game, much more so than SC1.

All in all, I like it. Good game. Still simple to learn, but will take awhile to master.

[Robert Goldsmith]

I thought SC2 was supposed to have simultaneous movement. This is warmed over Panzer General. I'm disappointed, to say the least.

[John DiFool the 2nd]

Still early-I'm not making premature judgements just

some observations.

[Blashy]

Originally posted by Robert Goldsmith:

I thought SC2 was supposed to have simultaneous movement. This is warmed over Panzer General. I'm disappointed, to say the least.

Simultaneous by each turn occurs at the same date?

It is possible in the options.

[Hubert Cater]

Definitely fair enough John and they are good observations as the Battle of the Atlantic was something I was working on to improve. As mentioned to Stalin's Organist it is difficult to paint the entire picture in a 6 month demo but the good thing is that there are quite a few added nuances that should in the worst case make it much more interesting.

Items like the various Advanced Subs and ASW levels having an effect on the convoy formulas (on top of their regular combat effects), multiple convoy paths, as well as the ability to control the amount of MPPs transfered between major Allies etc., i.e. if the US is losing too many MPPs due to sub activity they can decrease or eliminate the amount being transferred entirely and keep them all for themselves.

[Timskorn]

Just played the demo and pre-ordered my copy. As a huge fan of SC I can see that SC2 will be everything and more. I don't mind paying $50 because as part of a game company myself, I want to see small companies succeed in this insane multi-million dollar industry. Playing the demo brought back a lot of good SC memories too...

My early comments/impressions:

- I enjoy the Isometric view even though it took a little while to adjust to it.

- Didn't really know how to declare war on another country until I finally clicked on the Maps button. May be frustrating not to know this for new players.

- I love the sub-menu screens and the loads of information available to me, and the ability to upgrade specific components on a unit.

- So far the events are great and informative, like how the UK garrisons Iceland.

- Convoy Screen is a little confusing. I like the convoy screen, but I'm unsure how to interact with it using subs. Do I need to be directly in line with the convoy lines, or do I just need subs in the general vicinity?

- Diplomatic screen is well done. I like being able to see how close a country is to joining a side, and the ability to increase pressure. Good addition!

- The R&D system looks like it'll give players a lot of flexibility and options in the way they want to fight the war. Should open up a lot of strategies.

- Unit Honors is a small, but cool addition. Adds a bit of an RPG element in that you'll become more attached to units with a lot of honors and feel the crush of losing it in battle.

- D-Day scenario, and the operational level specifically, feels like a game within a game. I never played the famous Panzer General series, so I can't make comparisons. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

- I can see why people could judge this demo as "not worth" $50. For those who've played SC a lot, it seems most of the cool stuff has been disabled so our experience feels fairly similar to SC1. I'll be very surprised if the full game doesn't deliver.

Overall, the demo is what it is. If I had never played SC before the demo would be a fairly strong selling point for a wargamer. With the solid support Hubert has shown with SC1, the full array of features yet to be experienced, and an editor that will surely spawn many SC2-mods I know I'll be getting my $$ worth.

[Blashy]

Subs only need to be withing 1-2 tiles of the convoy lane.

[Jon Patrick]

Okay, I took my time to play a couple of times in the demo, and here's the FIRST IMPRESSIONS!!

First, I love Herbert. He listens, and I'm proud to have spent my $50 to support him, his hard work, and his fantastic games.

The demo - honestly, I'm having to *warm up* to it. The absolute first impression was not positive. I have a 1year old computer, but the basic graphics card I have allows only 1 resolution (map very close) and I have the problem with the disappearing icons. I look forward to the patch, needless to say, since I'm not a 2d/icon kinda guy.

I guess my first thought was the interface was *just* different enough (menus, etc) to make it confusing, and I spent more time than I planned learning what the heck was going on instead of just digging in and playing.

Again, let me stress that as I get more familiar, this is lessening and I'm enjoying the game more.

Someone mentioned the convoy lanes - I absolutely LOVE the addition (instead of SC1 where you move the sub 1 space, look at the MPP's lost, move it 1 space, repeat!)

Could we have a toggle to have the convoy lanes show up on the full map?

Also, the idea about left clicking (maybe with at ctrl-) to 'drag' the map around?

Finally, someone please work on the 'whole-world' scenerio, please!

Great job, I look forward to my copy, and I look forward to loving this game as much as I enjoyed SC1.

Heck, this time I *may* just offer my gameplay up as a sacrafice to an actual human player! (ie- i'm not that good and never played tcp/ip.)

[Blashy]

You can move around without using the mouse, just use the arrow keys. This is what I do. One hand on the arrow keys, one hand on the mouse.

Don't worry about online play, the community in the pbem league is 95% non-hardcore. Just playing for kicks.

[jon_j_rambo]

The other 5% are high strung, competitive temper driven glory hounds.