Tactics for flame AFVs

[Shosties]

One thing that I don't think is made very clear in the many, many flamethrowing threads on the forum is just how to go about using vehicular flamethrowers without having them get quickly thumped by infantry AT. In particular, sending Wasps and Badgers against Germans well stocked with late model panzerfausts seems like an iffy proposition to me.

Things that come to my mind for making this work: heavy suppression of enemy infantry by arty or direct fire HE fired from well back in LOS, close support of the flamers by friendly infantry (also to convienently bag those flushed out screaming by the fire)... but what do the old hands of the pyro school of play have to say... other than playing against Ghost358th as the British and finding out at the receiving end!

[ August 16, 2002, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: Shosties4th ]

[KEEF888]

Hey there! I'm far from "the old hands of the pyro school of play", but maybe this can help a bit. Merely by their intimidating presence, a flame throwing tank ends up being the recipient of just about every anti tank weapon within range. I too, find my "mobile-crack-pipe-lighters" prime targets, and many times experiencing a short scenario life. As you mentioned, OBA, infantry/HE suppression fire, smoke, etc. can assist in the flame throwing tank's assault. However, depending upon various parameters, i.e. opponents AT weapons, quality of troops, placement of untis, etc., I still found myself rarely making it to the end of a scenario with my flammpanzer(s) alive. Face it, they're target-magnets, plain and simple - I know that when I realize my opponent is equipped with flamers, (on foot or tread), I try and keep a keen eye on them so as to rid myself of that nuisance ASAP! Much has been said about the intentional setting of terrain fires, when on defense, so as to create a funneling effect for the opponent to travel through, thus setting up an ambush spot - or the torching of key buildings so as to prevent the use of them by the enemy, etc., all of which are great ideas and ones which even I've used to various degrees of success. But, as I mentioned, these are basically defensive actions. When attacking with a flammpanzer, sure, I want to do maximum damage, but I must constantly keep in mind that it is a prime target.(And, in most scenarios, only one, maybe two, will be allotted). I don't want to lose it/them too early, (or at all, if I can help it), but unlike other mobile weaponry, it must get quite close to it's target so as to be within striking distance - and that's where the danger arises. There is a fine line between watching your *ss and being a wimp. If one is going to be too cautious, he might as well not even use them at all. As a general rule of thumb, I'd rather lose my flamer but have taken out an enemy tank and a company of troops, rather than have made it through unscathed but have virtually zilch in the info/kills box.(Unless I needed to exit the vehicle, etc.) As previously mentioned, the support from friendly fire in it's varied forms can help immensely. And it is so fine when it all comes together - watching the already fleeing enemy suddenly lose half it's troops to the cusualty box when doused with a lethal burst of tank jizz! (Jezz, I think I'm getting a woody!) But all it takes is that one hidden bazooka/shreck team popping up or that AT gun suddenly appearing out of nowhere, and your B-B-Q orgy has just been rained out! So that's why I've started to use my flammpanzers more and more as a mopping up unit as opposed to a front line fighter. Broken/routed/high casualtied units are "wounded gazelles", just waiting to be pouced upon, and even the shaken/pinned/panicked units can be taken advantage of, albeit cautiously, especially if they are somewhat cut-off/isolated. Now is the time to finish off these pests, so as not to worry about them coming back to haunt you later in the game! And as with all tanks, infantry support is all important - I never leave them unattended. Anyway, I'm certain that there are many other/better ideas out there, but I hope this might also help. See ya!

[Shosties]

*Butthead voice* Settle down there, Beavis!

On a more serious note, I think its right to keep in mind, for the sake of those who perished in this manner and thus have been deprived of a voice in the affairs of the living, that while war *is* hell, flame warfare is extreme. I would wager that quite a few who dished it out would rather not have the memories of these things with them.

I agree with you that it makes sense to save the flame vehicles till later in the game for their shock and routing effect during the mop-up (i.e. you've already "won" at that point, and you want to guarentee it doesn't turn around for your opponent, and you'd like to turn it into a major or total and have auto-surrender kick in). However, I'm curious to see if it is feasible to rely upon them more than that if you give them the right sort of support.

[ August 16, 2002, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Shosties4th ]

[xerxes]

On the attack use the flame vehicle to dig out those pesky reverse slope infantry. Use area fire. This works well against "slope" hidden infantry and "I'm hiding in the rear of the big building" infantry. Naturally you have to ID and drive off any OPFOR units with LOS to your advance first.

A good defender will reverse slope you to disaster since the reverse slope neutralizes your HE throwers and forces your infantry to engage piecemeal at point blank range.

[JasonC]

Nobody has answered the actual question. I will speak to it from my own experience.

I don't find flame vehicles very useful because of this issue, but the British Wasp is an exception.

With the German 251/16, it just does not have enough armor protection. Zooks and rifle grenades are enough, so are 50 cals which most US vehicles sport. So you need to run up to point blank of the target knowing there are no (1) vehicles (2) zooks (3) good order unsuppressed squads (4) Foot 50 cals.

In my experience, that just can't be done. You gamble, that is all there is to it. If there isn't anything there or it misses or you suppress them before they hit you, then maybe it works and you burn a squad, or in rare cases a whole platoon out of a building. Anecdotal upside, but nothing to count on. Otherwise, you lose a 74 point flame halftrack.

If you had sat back at 200 yards with something as thin as a Hummel you would have been less vunerable, and would have killed the target even deader. Even a 75mm SPW would do the job, although it might take 2-3 minutes of HE tossing.

Stories about how you "have to" prep the target by covering with fire and arty and smoke and yada yada are all pretty silly. If you have enough to KO the position that thoroughly, the flame 'track coup de grace is almost an afterthought. You are toying with the other guy like a cat with a mouse at that point.

Better armor like on the flame Hetzer can make it easier. The lower front hull is still vunerable to zooks, and the sides are still vunerable. But you can count on the front plate bouncing a fair amount of what they might throw at you, and you can suppress them back as soon as you actually get to fire. The range is only 50m, but they don't cost any more than the 251/16 (which is silly, but there it is). Only available from December on, though.

I find the bane of flame Hetzers is distraction and the tac AI. It is easy for the thing to turn sideways to burn something new and present its thin sides to the enemy in the process, especially after KOing the main target but before the end of the minute. Still much more practical than the flame 'track. Still not nearly as practical as e.g. a StuH tossing HE from farther back.

The British Wasp has several things going for it, however. It is a very small target (size 51, half the hit probability of a Sherman), has high tracked cross country speed, and is particularly hard to hit when moving. Schrecks aren't all that accurate to begin with until the last 100m. The Wasp is also cheap, half the price of a tank. The flame has very good range as flame goes, 75 meters, and practically endless fuel at 50 shots allowed. 75 meters is enough that fausts often won't fire yet, especially neighboring units as opposed to the one you are shooting at. Also, the armor is enough to stop HMGs (unlike e.g. M3A1 HTs). It can also pop smoke and reverse when a vehicle or serious gun targets it.

The target is practically always infantry, and you just count on the Wasp's zippiness to get you close enough. It helps if the same body of cover is under infantry fire, to make faust usage less likely and to help if any schrecks pop up. Wasps are a reasonable weapon, and particularly good at countering German SMG infantry, which likes close combat situations (reverse slopes etc). Just take a pair of them in place of one vanilla tank or extra infantry platoon, and the added capability will pay off more often than not. Which one can't say for 251/16s.

[Redwolf]

I fully agree with Jason.

I'd like to add that any flamethrower attack reuires that the target can't get out fast, otherwise you only chase the enemy away.

Buildings with people in second floor are good. Having something with a line fo fire to the retreat route (in that case even a CMBO MG does good). A 81mm mortar FO.

There is also the CMBO speciality that attack from the enemy map side is substancially better, morale-wise. The run-away code only works for the friendly map side, if you stand between enemy unts and their map size and cause them to panic, they are in deep trouble. Another point where the wasp is cool since it isn't thinner on the back and fast enough to some there.

I kinda like the Crocodile, BTW. I don't buy it in Quickbattles because it's too expensive, but I got some in scenarios and they usually did very good, until landing in a minefield...

[Shosties]

Engaging reverse slope infantry: is this a case of going full tilt over the top and letting the TacAI take it from there? Or should you have someone peek over the crest so you can pre-target? An interesting possibility would be letting the stream arc over the crest for indirect fire but is this even modeled?

Any comments regarding the Badger? Same FT load out and range as the Wasp, slightly higher ground pressure, bit larger target, much more armor (pro), armor rather than vehicle points (con). Seems like a very useful conversion to have done to your Stuarts.

I take it both Sherman and Churchill Crocs don't see many QBs given their cost. Still, 80 shots and 100 meter range on the FT and the 75mm to boot give pause.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Shosties4th:

Any comments regarding the Badger? Same FT load out and range as the Wasp, slightly higher ground pressure, bit larger target, much more armor (pro), armor rather than vehicle points (con). Seems like a very useful conversion to have done to your Stuarts.

It a conversion of the Canadan RAM.

The badger is fine for a flamethrower vehicle. In theory it is very good to be 20mm safe. In practice I found that the real threat to flamethrower vehicles are AT teams and squad close assault, so the speed of the Wasp takes precedence.

If the Flak guns wouldn't have the crazy accuracy bump that would be even more clear. On the attack the badger may be better, but the Wasp clearly is in MEs and defense.

[xerxes]

No, no, not over the top. That's a move that will most likely get you creamed. One of the safest tactics for flamers (motorized or man-portable) is to get close, but not with LOS to the enemy. Then area target. Flame is not entirely accurate and your misses can go beyond your LOS.

In addition the flame will effect the entire tile if it lights up. This can drive the enemy out of their reverse slope positions.

This is useful against a skillful defender. Less skilled defenders will let their infantry hang out in cover but with long LOSes. Good old keyholed direct fire HE is the best tool for attacking those positions (among several options).

[ August 16, 2002, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: xerxes ]

[gredeker]

And whatever you do, keep your Wasp buttoned up!

I've had good luck using a larger version of Tophat and Lowsky with Wasps, using Fast and Reverse (never Hunt). You don't necessarily have to move the Wasp out of sight, just in and out of flamethrower range - which happens to also be about the same as infantry AT range.

[Shosties]

Originally posted by xerxes:

No, no, not over the top. That's a move that will most likely get you creamed.

Yup! Which is why I was refining my question.

Originally posted by xerxes:

One of the safest tactics for flamers (motorized or man-portable) is to get close, but not with LOS to the enemy. Then area target. Flame is not entirely accurate and your misses can go beyond your LOS.

In addition the flame will effect the entire tile if it lights up. This can drive the enemy out of their reverse slope positions.

Ahhh, alles klar, as they say Great, now maybe I'll actually start using the area target command for somefink!

Xerxes, you wouldn't happen to be a G.F. Handel fan would you?

[xerxes]

Don't know him so I'd guess not.

btw, area fire is a key tool to master.

[Shosties]

As usual Jason, you bust out the good stuff. Thanks!

redwolf....

Originally posted by redwolf:

It a conversion of the Canadan RAM.

Ah, that makes even more sense than a Stuart conversion! So what other guises other than the Badger and the RAM Kangaroo did this AFV find its way into action in?

Originally posted by redwolf:

The badger is fine for a flamethrower vehicle. In theory it is very good to be 20mm safe. In practice I found that the real threat to flamethrower vehicles are AT teams and squad close assault, so the speed of the Wasp takes precedence.

Doesn't the Badger actually have a somewhat higher top speed than the Wasp? Is this a case of better acceleration and turning rate rather than "speed"?

[Shosties]

Originally posted by xerxes:

Don't know him so I'd guess not.

Georg Frederic Handel, contemporary of J.S. Bach, best known for his "Water Music" (the hornpipe movement in particular gets much replay), was a big hit in Hanoverian London and was considered by Beethoven to be the greatest composer ever. He wrote an opera entitled "Xerxes" which is why I asked.

Originally posted by xerxes:

btw, area fire is a key tool to master.

Yeah, thinking back I can remember times where using area target for my on-board mortars would have been of benefit.

[ August 16, 2002, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: Shosties4th ]

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Shosties4th:

Doesn't the Badger actually have a somewhat higher top speed than the Wasp? Is this a case of better acceleration and turning rate rather than "speed"?

Don't know the value in the unit info, as that is pretty meaningless. In open terrain not to speak of scattered trees, mud and snow, things are different and the universal carrier derivates are hard to beat. I'm pretty sure the Badger sucks as any of the Sherman-type suspension vehicles (except the Stuart).

[GRUMLIN]

I had great fun with a flamer halftrack in an ip game last week, and it ended up winning the game for me. However, I havent learnt my lesson from losing loads of others, and the lessons are:

Hide your flamer till well into the scenario when you should know where all other AV and AT guns are.

Only bring it up when the front lines have solidified and you need to crack a section

Rush it up (fast move), skid to a halt and flame the buggers.

Reverse at top speed cos the nme will now be targetting it with all the infantry left...if the timing is right lay the orders on the end of the fast rush...you should get a couple of squirts in anyway.

Repeat until well done.

Grum

[John Kettler]

Based on bitter personal experience, do not take flame AFVs in a night battle in town unless given them by scenario or you can somehow guarantee overwhelming infantry and fire support. Hint: you can't. I lost two Crocs in almost no time flat--in spite of every tactical trick I could think of. Panzerschrecks!

In daylight, though, the Croc can be most formidable, functioning as a heavily armored tank with added flame capabilities when close enough. I had one go toe to toe with a 75mm AT PB in a city fight, survive multiple head-on hits from several hundred meters, then kill the PB. I don't know how many Germans it killed, but it set many buildings ablaze and kept the Germans jumping, aided by pounding HE and stinging MG fire. Working in direct support of advancing infantry, it survived hits which destroyed its thinner armoured cousin, the AVRE. I had another one in a rural setting, also with infantry support, smash several PBs, become immobilized, then fight on to kill several AFVs and smite several AT teams. It never burned anyone but more than paid for itself.

In another fight, I had a pair of 251/16s, with which I did some good work in a village early on, but which died quickly. Part of the reason for this is that the game doesn't model the fact that this rig has two armor protected flame projectors, plus a third one which is a "fire hose" which can be used dismounted without exposing the 251/16. Am hoping for some improvements in CMBB.

I did nasty damage with a Wasp against German infantry dug into a fold in the ground atop a ridge. Infantry remnants supporting by fire kept the Germans distracted, and I repeatedly raced into range from the flank after targeting, then reversed immediately. Not only did I survive a bunch of Panzerfaust shots and grenades, but the flame attacks set a tile holding a foxholed squad ablaze, and put several other squads to flight. That Wasp, later killed by a StuG clear across the board (?), achieved for me what the near annihilation of several brave platoons could not, the breaking of a defiladed defense. Sadly, reinforcements butchered my troops from afar just as they carried the position and emerged on the exposed opposite side.

As noted by others here, flame AFVs are weapon magnets, must be used in an integrated fashion (preferably from keyholed positions limiting their exposure), and work best against foes who can't fight back effectively Smoke can be a big help, in that it limits who can see the flame AFV, but infantry needs to be with the AFV, better yet in front of it, to winkle out AT teams and infantry.

That said, there are times when flame AFVs, especially Crocs, must lead the way. Similarly, even the lighter flame AFVs can be used to deal brutal blows if the situation justifies the risk.

Of course, there's nothing quite like a flame ambush.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Redwolf]

Given all the praise for the Crocodile I can't refuse to be devil's advocate:

Yepp, at close range it is very useful against infantry - as useful as a normal tank should be with its two or three MGs :eek:

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Originally posted by John Kettler:

Based on bitter personal experience, do not take flame AFVs in a night battle in town unless given them by scenario or you can somehow guarantee overwhelming infantry and fire support. Hint: you can't. I lost two Crocs in almost no time flat--in spite of every tactical trick I could think of. Panzerschrecks!

Hehehehe. I remember that battle well John Panzerschreks did the trick!

some good tips in this thread. Here are my 10 basic rules for using flame AFV effectively.

1) Never commit them too early - they will die quickly if you do.

2) Wait until you have seen the best part of the enemies assets. You will then know when, and where to direct your flame AFV.

3) Keep your flame AFV at their maximum range from the target, the further away you are the safer you are from fausts/shrecks/bazooka's/ rifle grenades.

4) Flame vehicles work most effectively on buildings with occupants. Try to ensure you have supporting units to inflict casualties on the fleeing infantry when they panic and flee the burning building.

5) The wasp has an excellent range at 75 meters and ample fuel loadouts, it is impervious to all small arms and MG fire, but keep it buttoned at all times, the los of the TC will render the vehicle useless.

6) Remember that wasps cannot fire from hull down position - chose your approach accordingly.

7) Hetzers have a short range of 50m. Always use them in close support of your infantry, don't let them wander as a lone unit, they can get outflanked very easily.

8) Flame Htracks are the most vulnerable flame AFV and are very hard to use effectively, if they live long enough to get within range. Keep them at the rear until the final 3rd of the battle. Then bring them into play.

9) The Churchill Crocodile has a flame range of 100m, it also has a 75mm gun with HE and the MG's. Keep it away from Tigers and Panthers and it can do a great job.

10) The mistake most players make with flame AFV's is to commit them too early in the battle, they are a game winning asset, so preserve them and use them at the right time and in the right way.

Oh, one more thing - I have KO'd Hetzers, Stugs, Panthers and Jagdpanzers using only a Wasp. Usually the tank will go up in a big explosion when hit by 2 or more bursts of flame, but its a bit tricky to do it

CDIC

[CMplayer]

I agree that wasps and the like should be used late in the game to take out holdouts, and support assaults on positions when your infantry is starting to get exhausted or low on ammo, and other support isn't available.

Flamers can be used early on, but the risk is much greater of losing them. Towards the end, they can take you that last 'mile'.

[Webs]

I know the Wasp won't fir its flamethrower if it has taken a casualty, but is the same true for the Crocodile? I just played against the AI, and it was the first time I've had the Croc crew suffer just one casualty. It never flamed on, even in sight of enemy infantry

[RSColonel_131st]

Originally posted by Shosties4th:

Engaging reverse slope infantry: is this a case of going full tilt over the top and letting the TacAI take it from there? Or should you have someone peek over the crest so you can pre-target?

I tried that in my current PBEM game with Cubes. Sadly by luck he got the HT before it went over the hill. But what I *would* have done is:

A) spying out the enemy infantry holding the VL with normal scouts

II) Positioning my HT on the other side of the slope (the VL was only 50 meters away from the slope)

*)Let it run over the crest to the Forrest VL where the infantry sits and area fire at 50 meters...beyond throwing range of any handgrenades. That means 50 to 70 meters FAST movement, and 50 or 40 meter Area fire, quite doable in a single turn.

I'm sure that tactic would have worked, if only I wouldn't have placed my Flamers Ready Position to high up the slope...which gave Cubes a target.

I'm sure it can work the same way if you can approach infantry while behind trees or other terrain features. The idea should be to conceal your vehicle, rotate it into perfect start position, and then simple let it run and flame. That might only work for one or two turns before enemy brings in AT Assets, but that location is definitly clear afterwards.