Treeburst155 Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 At this point, if we still have everyone onboard, I would like each player to come up with ALL the parameters for a single battle. This would include one of the widely known force purchase rulesets. I think the best way to do this is for me to send out a form for all to fill out (a .txt file players can simply edit with their choices). I will then construct a battle with their chosen parameters,etc.. I will use the random map generator in the editor, and doctor the maps up a bit. Map size and setup zones will be duplicates of what the QB generator does for the same parameters and force size. In effect, I will be manually creating QBs for better maps, and the ability to purchase forces in the editor. I will put together this "Battle Parameters Form" right now. I must think it through carefully. I will post the form here so you guys can point out any omissions or problems. Players should keep in mind that one of the battles will be discarded at random (picked from a hat). Also, players will have no control over which side they play. There will be three Allied attacks, three Allied defends, and one meeting engagement. Attacker/defender ratio 1.5:1 Flags will be QB default in number and value, but possibly re-situated. Treeburst155 out. [ June 11, 2002, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Here's the Battle Parameters Form I will be sending to you guys. Can you find any ambiguities or omissions? _______________________________________________ BATTLE PARAMETERS FORM Attack/defend or meeting? Defender Force Points (if attack/defend): Meeting Force Points (if meeting): Max Force Points that can be edited out (dumping 2" mortars, etc.): Map Dimensions, frontline: depth: Setup Zones (as portion of map depth), defender: attacker: Number and value of flags: Flag placement (distance from defender's map edge): Month: Time Of Day: Weather: Ground Conditions: Game Length: Map Type (Farm, Rural, etc.): Tree coverage: Hilliness: FORCE PURCHASE RULESET Players may choose from any one of the "Balanced Force" Rulesets so nicely presented at Rugged Defense. Go here: http://www.rugged-defense.nl/cm/Fionn/FionnKellyBFRules.htm Your choice: Special Purchase Rules (no armed Sdkfz, no Volksgrenadier SMGs, etc.): Be specific!! FORCE (Heer, Waffen SS, etc.) will be unrestricted, but can be addressed in your Special Purchase Rules (no mixing, Heer only, etc.). FORCE known to enemy? TYPE (Combined Arms, Mechanized, etc.) will be determined by you by filling in percentages of total force points below. These percentages are the MAXIMUM percentage of total force points that can be spent in a category. For "unrestricted" you would simply put 100% for all categories. Infantry % : Support % : Armor % : Artillery % : Fortifications % : Make sure your Special Rules and TYPE percentages are compatible with the Ruleset you choose. Be thoughtful in setting up "your" battle. Balance is important. [ June 13, 2002, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 The eighth battle will not be thrown out!! It will be used for the mirrored playoff between the top two. Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwxspoon Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 I can see the wine for us ROW designers going down the drain. jw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 Mike, Why not an unlimited option? I dislike CM's inbuilt purchase limits since I figure that so long as the various weapons systems are balanced off against eachother it shouldn't matter whether I get 20% arty or 30% arty so long as I know how to use it. So, I'd like an Unlimited setting also instead of the COmbined Arms, Mech etc etc... Otherwise the game just degenerates into a "Well, in a 1500 point game he has enough points to buy 1 Panther and a Hetzer. I've killed 1 Panther therefore he MUST have 1 Hetzer left." Strikes me as kinda unrealistic. Therefore I prfer unlimited purchases. If someone goes mad and buys 60% tanks they'll lose (since unbalanced forces generally do poorly) but it does prevent the number-crunchers from winning out (IMO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted June 11, 2002 Share Posted June 11, 2002 I had several games with no limits for armor and vehicles, otherwise combined arms. Worked pretty well, I think noone here will voluntarily overuse vehicles/tanks, and it prevents counting tanks and it doesn't cause you to sit there with 80 armor points left when you need 83 for the Hetzer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat Opinion Staff Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 I dunno if I want to play under unrestricted. Do I need to explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Well, you guys found an ambiguity. I should have made clear that the TYPE (combined arms, mechanized) percentages can be anything you want. They don't have to equal 100% combined. I should have said "maximum percentage of force points allowed". You could set all of these to 100%, meaning 100% of force points could be spent in any single category. (unlimited) Picture the columns in the force purchase screen. I'm just allowing you to set your own upper limit in every category as a percentage of total force points. If you want unlimited, then choose 100% for all categories. If you would rather set some limits for "your" scenario, you have that option. These limits will have to be set by us since these are not really QBs. The TYPE parameter means nothing because it is not in effect in the editor. You have the opportunity here to customize your own TYPE of forces for "your" scenario. EDIT: I've edited the Battle Parameters Form above to make things more clear. Treeburst155 out. [ June 11, 2002, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combat Opinion Staff Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Treeburst, fair enough. Let us determine if our battle is an attack/defend or meeting engagement? Thank you for your dedication. Swamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Swamp, I see no reason why players could not make the choice between attack/defend or meeting engagement for "their" scenario ,other than we won't necessarily get 3 German attack, 3 Allied attack, and 1 meeting. Since sides will be uneven, attack/defend duties will probably be uneven anyway. A player could end up with three Allied defenses, and three German defenses anyway. I see no problem with allowing players to do this. Any objections? Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 "Why not an unlimited option? I dislike CM's inbuilt purchase limits since I figure that so long as the various weapons systems are balanced off against eachother it shouldn't matter whether I get 20% arty or 30% arty so long as I know how to use it." I figure that if this is the clash of the titans that everybody in it knows how to use arty. The way I see the balance of the game is as follows: germans have much better and much more infantry and better armor while allies have more better and quicker arty. To allow germans to have more arty throws the game off balance. While I agree that there can be tank counting, I really don't think this matters if you know how to use infantry. Infantry always wins battles unless it is a wide open field. If someone goes mad and buys 60% tanks they'll lose (since unbalanced forces generally do poorly) but it does prevent the number-crunchers from winning out (IMO) agreed but I do not think the unlimited pts will be used to purchase tanks. It will be used to purchase arty. I know I have no say in this tourney but I had to throw my 2 cents in:) BTW, the next clash of the Titans I should be in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorTaktik Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 I like the unrestricted "type" for force purchase, but I have said before, the exception should be a definate restriction on caliber and amount of arty. And watch what you guys say about tanks. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFE Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 You folks considered using the end game randomizer? Might prove interesting if the battles are going to be conducted PBEM. Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Players can do a great deal of force manipulation by assigning maximum percentages to the various unit categories. Arty can be limited in this way by the players in "their" scenario. If a player goes with 100% in the arty category then there very well could be an arty duel. The important thing is that both players are held to the same maximum percentages. I think it's all very fair having each player "design" one scenario. Especially when the players don't know which side they will end up playing. I realize in regular QBs the amount of points allowed per category is different for each side, but, I don't think it's that impportant. Am I wrong? The German player may be able to spend as much on arty as the Allied player, but he still can't make the rounds come down any sooner. It would probably be impossible to get all eight players to agree on one set of parameters and rules. By having each player "design" a battle the way he wants, all players are equally dissatified with six of the seven battles. Fairness above all in this tourney, I think. Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathdealer Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Everything else is fine but a) no flaktrucks guns should have towing vehicle in MEs and in attacks c) definitely I want some arty limit - Scipios artillery rules are something I ALWAYS use and that's a fact ... to me artillery duels prove nothing of players skill and I don't want to waste my time in such fights Armor/Combined/Recon/Infantry all the same but I prefer unrestricted as then I can get basically what I think is necessary. But the arty is what concerns me - naval guns are plain stupid for example... Just my thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stixx Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Originally posted by jwxspoon: I can see the wine for us ROW designers going down the drain. jwI can think of better places for it to go! Stix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Well, it looks like at least 3 participants like unlimited settings ( with some common sense of course). 2 don't. What do the others say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wreck Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 The only setting I care about limiting is arty. Like others, I don't care to get in an arty duel. Imagine: my naval observers against your 300mm rocket horde (or whatever) in an ME. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Originally posted by Deathdealer: Everything else is fine but a) no flaktrucks guns should have towing vehicle in MEs and in attacks c) definitely I want some arty limit - Scipios artillery rules are something I ALWAYS use and that's a fact ... to me artillery duels prove nothing of players skill and I don't want to waste my time in such fights Armor/Combined/Recon/Infantry all the same but I prefer unrestricted as then I can get basically what I think is necessary. But the arty is what concerns me - naval guns are plain stupid for example... Just my thoughtsFlaktrucks- I don't think anyone has a problem with ruling out flaktrucks. Flaktrucks are out. Item B, towing vehicles for guns- we will run into disagreement here so this is best left to the special rules for "your" scenario. Arty- caliber is limited by the rulesets. As for limiting the number of points that can be spent on arty, we might be able to come to a unanimous agreement on this if we set a high enough limit. Arty is limited to 30% of total points. Unlimited TYPE- this is not unanimous so must be left to the individual scenario designs. If there are any objections to the rules in bold (Arty point limit and Flaktrucks)post here, and these things will also be left up to individual scenario design. There is no better way to deal with disagreements than to leave them up to the players' scenario designs. As I said earlier, this insures everyone is dissatisfied with 6/7ths of the tourney. We'll please all the people some of the time since that seems more equitable than pleasing some of the people all the time. BTW, players will be able to choose attack/defend or meeting for their scenarios since I haven't heard any dissent regardng that proposal. Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 I don't think I've ever bought more than 30% arty so I'd be cool with saying "Unlimited purchases except we use the honour system to keep arty below 30%". It seems to me that that would prevent the arty massacres everyone ( including myself) wants to avoid whilst still allowing people to buy loads of HTs if they want mechanised forces or loads of HMGs or whatever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broken Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Just to throw out a target to shoot at, here are my game parameters: _______________________________________________ BATTLE PARAMETERS FORM Defender Force Points: 3000 Max Force Points that can be edited out (dumping 2" mortars, etc.): unlimited Map Size (small, medium, large): medium Month: August Time Of Day: day Weather: clear Ground Conditions: dry Game Length: 31 Map Type (Farm, Rural, etc.): Village Tree coverage: heavy Hilliness: moderate Force Purchase Ruleset: Panther 76 with 155mm limit. Special Purchase Rules: No airplanes, Flak trucks, or AT mines (Daisy-chain OK). Force: Single (Heer, Brit Airborne, etc). Mixing Prohibited. force unknown to enemy Purchase Limitations: Infantry % : 100 Support % : 100 Armor % : 100 Artillery % : 25 Fortifications % : 100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Broken, There we go! That's what I want to see happening. You get one more choice I just added within the hour. Do you want your battle to be attack/defend or meeting? EDIT: Oh, I see, you made your choice by omitting Meeting points. ________________________________________________ Broken's choice of 25% arty shows that arty limits should be left up to the individual scenario designs. IOW, he thinks 30% is too much. I think what Fionn is driving at with his "honor system" is that he doesn't want players to find themselves a few points short of another arty purchase. This same situation applies to ALL the TYPE percentages where limits are set. We should come to an understanding on how "hard" all the TYPE percentages are. Should we allow, say a 10 point fudge, so players aren't prevented from a purchase for lack of a few points? If we do allow some fudging we need to put a hard limit on it to prevent creep. I need concrete purchase rules! 10 points max fudge on TYPE percentages. If you miss a purchase by more than that you simply don't have the points to make that set of purchases. Any objections? Treeburst155 out. [ June 12, 2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Treeburst155 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treeburst155 Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 ooooh, Broken!, nice map. Now for a little bit of the human touch....I'm building your scenario now. Treeburst155 out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broken Posted June 12, 2002 Share Posted June 12, 2002 Mike, I omitted who the attacker is: Allied. And I guess the correct term is "Modest" hills, although their quest for modesty should be satisfied with the heavy tree cover. Also, Quality is Regular, Vet, or Crack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted June 13, 2002 Share Posted June 13, 2002 BATTLE PARAMETERS FORM Defender Force Points: 3000 Max Force Points that can be edited out (dumping 2" mortars, etc.): unlimited Map Size (small, medium, large): Hmm, I'd like 1 km wide map by 2.4 km deep. Otherwise the defence has no depth. Month: October Time Of Day: day Weather: clear Ground Conditions: dry Game Length: 40 Map Type (Farm, Rural, etc.): Rural Tree coverage: Light Hilliness: Modest Hills Force Purchase Ruleset: Panther 76 with 120mm limit. Special Purchase Rules: NO exceptions to Panther/76. Exceptions unbalance the rules and, IMO, shouldn't be allowed in the tournament unless BOTH sides agree/ Force: Single (Heer, Brit Airborne, etc). Mixing Prohibited. force unknown to enemy Purchase Limitations: Infantry % : 100 Support % : 100 Armor % : 100 Artillery % : 100 Fortifications % : 100 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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