Russian lack of "Automatic Rifles" in 1941

[YankeeDog]

So for light reading, I'm working my way through Russia at War: 1941-1945 by Alexander Werth. The book is not primarily a work on Military History - it deals mostly with political and social events during the war period - however, invevitably it does make some interesting assertions about specific military facts.

I just finished reading through the part of the book that covers events leading up to the initial German invasion and the first few months of the war. Therein, the author makes the assertion that many Red Army units were lacking in basic weapons and equipment in the early months of the war (no surprise there. . .). In particular, though, he states that the Red Army was lacking in "Automatic Rifles" during 1941. His use of the term "Automatic Rifle" is a bit nonspecific, but after reading more of the book, it appears that he is referring to automatic weapons in general - that is, SMGs like the PPsh, LMGs like the DP (or DT) LMG, and perhaps even the Maxim MMG.

While the book is not primarily a work a military history, it is generally well researched and cited, and as the author was actually in Russia for most of the War (and also spoke fluent Russian), I tend to give his assertions some weight. I am curious, though:

1. Has anyone else here read anything stating that the Red Army was lacking specifically in Automatic Weapons in the early war? IOW, in 1941 were there Red Army units running around armed mostly with Mosin-Nagant Rifles, and few or no SMGs, LMGs and possibly even MMGs?

2. If so, is this something CMBB should model? Should there be an additional platoon type of Early-War Russian infantry equipped with all (or nearly all) Bolt-Action Rifles? I'm sure almost no one would pick these platoons for quick battles, but scenario designers might use them now and then. The closest you can come right now to an "Automatic Rifle"-less platoon in 1941 right now is to choose a regular infantry Pioneer platoon. Even 1941 Pioneer squads still have an SMG in every squad (but no LMG), though. Regular Russian infantry squads have 2 SMGs and an LMG in 1941 as they are modeled right now.

I'm curious to hear other's opinions/evidence.

Cheers,

YD

[Kirill S.]

The PPSh was the only one in rarity. There was enough of the MMGs, LMGs and HMGs. The PPSh was underrated before and at the start of the war, but the front-line experience quickly fixed that up.

EDIT: Evidence is here, in Russian, saying how rare the PPSh were http://moscowbattle.narod.ru/weapons/ppsh.html

[ December 28, 2002, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Kirill S. ]

[Bimmer]

I don't have any figures to support this (but I'd love to see some), but I would imagine that the SVT-40 semi-automatic rifle was also in rather short supply, and could perhaps be what Werth was talking about. Certainly the Mosin-Nagant was by far the most plentiful infantry weapon early in the war.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Kirill S.:

The PPSh was the only one in rarity. There was enough of the MMGs, LMGs and HMGs. The PPSh was underrated before and at the start of the war, but the front-line experience quickly fixed that up.

EDIT: Evidence is here, in Russian, saying how rare the PPSh were http://moscowbattle.narod.ru/weapons/ppsh.html

The website you offer the link to is in Russian, which is not among the languages I speak, so alas I will have to take your word for it.

Yes, in regards to the "Automatic Rifle" shortage, Werth is definitely speaking of *at least* the PPSh. He's got his terminology a bit off here (I'd condsider the DP1928 closer to an "Automatic Rifle" than a PPSh), but later on in the book he specifically mentions the ramping up of PPSh production as one of the the solutions to the "Automatic Rifle" shortage. Even if it were just this weapon that was in short supply in 1941 though, this would make a substantial difference in the firepower ratings of early-war Russian squads, at least at short ranges - those 2 PPSh SMGs have more firepower at 40m than the rest of a Russian Rifle 1941 Squad combined!!

It might be interesting if the Game offered a "Rifle 41 platoon - Underquipped" as a possible unit selection, representing a platoon having perhaps 2 squads with no SMGs, and the other two squads with the "Normal" 2 SMGs each. This would actually require only one additional unit type in the game - a Russian Rifle 41 squad with no SMGs (otherwise known as cannon fodder ).

Anyway, just a thought.

Cheers,

YD

[Foxbat]

I reckon he means after the invasion, the Red Army had quite a few SVT's and PPSh's and tons of machineguns on the eve of the war.. but most of them went AWOL rather quickly.

And most units after june were newly raised or reformed units and the russians had a hard time finding enough rifles to equip them, let alone automatic weapons. In fact the SVT and one of the previously common Degtyarev LMG's were officialy dropped from the squad TOE.

[Leit]

During the Winter war (Somusalmi) it become clear for high command that solgers cant effectivly use modern wepon. So all SVT and PPSh and Degtar`v's MG was stored and infrantery divisions get Mosin rifels and Maxim MG-s back.

So there was enoth modern wepons to suply Red Army twice, but all thet stores was destryed or captured during first three- four months of the war.

So only elite units have that kinds of wepons. (m... tankodesantniki for example). Infrantery wich walking on feet threw all war hadn't saw that wepons.

My grandfather fought as a leitenant-engener (bilt briges, clear minefields). He sad that in their batalion only batalion comander had PPSh. Grandfather use P-38 or some rifel from dead solgers while ammo present.

To the CVT-40. After Winter war and high staff order to store modern wepons, admirals, whos solgers was much better than in army taken advantage of a situation and get as much of that wepons as possible. So SVT-40 served in navy forses mainly and they like that rifle as against army. Thats why Morpeh hold firsly and with great sucress Sevastopol and other points where they were used independently.

[ December 29, 2002, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: Leit ]

[tracer]

Well, the SVT 40 might have been rare, but that is hard to believe, I own a SVT 40 (7.62 by 54) and there sure were a lot that were imported into the states about 6 years ago.

[YankeeDog]

Originally posted by Foxbat:

I reckon he means after the invasion, the Red Army had quite a few SVT's and PPSh's and tons of machineguns on the eve of the war.. but most of them went AWOL rather quickly.

And most units after june were newly raised or reformed units and the russians had a hard time finding enough rifles to equip them, let alone automatic weapons. In fact the SVT and one of the previously common Degtyarev LMG's were officialy dropped from the squad TOE.

No, Werth definitely means before the invasion. According to Werth, one of the Deputy Commissars for Defense at the start of the War, G. I. Kulik, did not consider automatic weapons to be of much value, so he was slow to equip the troops with them. He is able to cite the Official Soviet History of the War on this.

Now, the official Soviet History may be wrong - it often bends facts for political reasons - but I would be curious to see if there is any empirical figures (production or shipping figures, etc.) to prove or disprove Mr. Werth's hypothesis.

He does agree with you that the weapons shortage got worse after the first few weeks of the war due to the large numbers of weapons lost in the encirclements.

Thanks all for the opinions and perspectives.

Cheers,

YD

[Bimmer]

"Rare" in terms of Soviet production does not (to my mind, at least) necessarily mean rare in the US arms market. What I was trying to suggest was that the SVT was far less available than the primary infantry weapon of the time, the Mosin-Nagant. (I do watch the surplus arms market here, as I am a collector and C&R holder).

[Leit]

tracer

School boys several months ago, pesants, other men whos education is about basic level could undestand how to use very simple wepon like Mosin rifel. Advansed wepon may present much problems for not far owner.

SVT 40 or other wepon like it need good care and good knowlage of wepon. For example you may foget clean Mosin rifle at all and it will serve good, it would serve better if you pour it with rifel oil at -20... -25 C temperature... You can use Mosin rifel even as a hammer and it would serve as a rifle in future. If you do the same with SVT 40 you can throw it out after several days.

That was the single reson why good wepons wasn't in first Red Army lines... So the main rule was: "We fit that pool with water when you would learn swiming".

[SgtMuhammed]

Remember that the leaders of the "Classless" Red Army trusted their soldiers about as much as Stalin trusted his Generals. Many Soviet shortages were self inflicted because it was felt that the soldiers couldn't handle the new weapons.

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by Leit:

SVT 40 or other wepon like it need good care and good knowlage of wepon. For example you may foget clean Mosin rifle at all and it will serve good, it would serve better if you pour it with rifel oil at -20... -25 C temperature... You can use Mosin rifel even as a hammer and it would serve as a rifle in future. If you do the same with SVT 40 you can throw it out after several days.

That was the single reson why good wepons wasn't in first Red Army lines... So the main rule was: "We fit that pool with water when you would learn swiming".

Good point, most soldiers probably didn't know you had to clean the SVT, and if they did they probably did not know how. Instructionm was always lagging behind because of the large intake of new recruits with every wave of conscripts, and the fact that the instructors-to-be were also conscripts from the previous wave.

Now imagine you are tought and instructed how to use, maintain and clean a basic rifle and you are given an SVT. Obviously you will treat it like a rifle and the gas-operating system (that you know nothing about) will clog quickly and the rifle will become unreliable and even stop working after a few days.

Now for the naval infantry this was less of a problem, cleaning things is a mariners day-job so they were probably thoroughly instructed in keeping their weapons clean, presentable and thus functional

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by tracer:

Well, the SVT 40 might have been rare, but that is hard to believe, I own a SVT 40 (7.62 by 54) and there sure were a lot that were imported into the states about 6 years ago.

It wasn't rare in absolute terms they made 1.3 million SVT's mostly pre-war as production essentialy ceased in 1942 and well over 50 thousand of the preceding Simonov rifle (as Bimmer said, not rare in terms of rifles available on the surplus market).

But the intention had been to equip the entire infantry arm with these weapons (and some selected units were), but in reality this was scaled down to two per squad.

And since the rifle was being disributed with a preference for more specialist units that had a longer training time (and thus could be expected to properly handle the weapon in the field) a regular rifle squad was lucky to have even it's two designated SVT's.

Btw: since you actually have an SVT could you share some of your experiences with us?

[ December 29, 2002, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: Foxbat ]

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by YankeeDog:

No, Werth definitely means before the invasion. According to Werth, one of the Deputy Commissars for Defense at the start of the War, G. I. Kulik, did not consider automatic weapons to be of much value, so he was slow to equip the troops with them. He is able to cite the Official Soviet History of the War on this.

Ok, I see what he's getting at. I thought he meant relative to the red army's percieved needs (like for example with tanks, where the Red Army had only 10% of it's nominal amount of modern tanks).

But I now see he means that the was left bereft of automatic weapons through the meddling of officials, and that certainly seems to have been the case. For example the new Degtyarev medium machinegun was taken from service and replaced by the old maxim (and not the Goryunov model that had just become available) two weeks before the invasion :eek:

The Vuvodin pistol, although essentialy available a year before the war, was never adopted because trials dragged on too long.

And worst of all (and probably what Werth is referring too) the Shpagin submachine gun had passed the most exhaustive individual and comparative tests in late 1940 and was almost immediatly adopted, but even though production was simple and effective and could be carried out in spartan circumstances by untrained workers output of these weapons was the basic squad only had two of these weapoons (if they were lucky) and the official organisation called for these weapons to be distributed mainly to special SMG companies, leaving the regular rifle squads without the automatic fire capability they could, and should, have had...

[YankeeDog]

Foxbat -

That's intersting info - thank for the insight.

It seems to me that it would be a good thing if CMBB allowed scenario designers to simulate the early-war lack of automatic weapons in the Red Army by offering an Early War Russian squad with no SMGs or LMGs, just bolt action rifles.

An along related lines, I've read that Germans had a similar lack of automatic firepower just a few months later, in the winter of 1941. They still had their MG34s and MP40s, but didn't have any lighter grade "winter" lubrication oil for the weapons. The thicker "summer" oil would congeal in the extreme cold, rendering the MGs and SMGs virtually inoperable, so many German units had to rely on their Kar98s for a while.

It would be kind of neat to be able to simulate these variations in equipment and firepower in the game.

Cheers,

YD

[YankeeDog]

Whups, excuse me while I eat my words

Upon futher noodling with the scenario editor, I have discovered there is already a couple of 1941 Russian squad type with few or no SMGs. There may be more that I haven't discovered yet:

1941 Mountain Squad: 12 men, 1 SVT, 10 rifles & 1 DP LMG

1941B Cavalry Squad: 11 men, 1 SVT, 10 rifles.

So, whether by design or by accident (and I suspect more of the former than the latter), CMBB does give Scenario Designers the freedom to create Russian infantry formations that are short automatic weapons.

Now I will shut up and go play.

Cheers,

YD