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Stuarts and Shermans


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I played a game last night where I had two Shermans and two Stuarts. I lost all four very quickly. I grouped them together like Stuart and Sherman on one side and duplicate that on the other side. Since I couldn't seem to outflank my adversary, his Axis armor killed me, alot.

When you can't flank, how can you use these tanks?

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal

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With American armor, you will always be at a disadvantage in almost every field that matters.

The only options you have are to:

1.) Distract the enemy, and move in close enough without taking fire so you actually have a chance to penetrate their armor. (Smoke, infantry, and feint attacks with artillery are useful in this regard)

2.) Infantry are the death of tanks, and tanks are the death of infantry. Go figure, but it really is true! biggrin.gif The Russians discovered in Chechnya that when their tanks did not have any infantry support, many young Russians boys did not return to their loved ones. Again, distraction will help to get them close enough, but infantry are a little easier to close in on the target in a stealthy manner.

3.) Your tanks can ONLY engage German armor with overwhelming numbers and at very close range. What sort of terrain are we talking about? If this is urban, that panzer is as good as dead. Wooded terrain is pretty good as well, but if you're talking clear open fields with no cover, it's time for you to turn tail and get back on a landing vessel at Omaha. If they can see you, you will die.

So get in close to knife-fighting range by ANY MEANS POSSIBLE, and make sure that when you DO show your tanks, that he sees all four of them at ONCE, and NOT one at a time.

I can only hope my advice has been useful to you. Later! biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by I/O Error (edited 12-02-2000).]

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The best way to use armor is first to send out the infantry for spotting the enemy. Your tanks should be well hidden behind woods, houses or hills. When you see them move the armor in a hull down position, behind the top of a hill would be great for this.

With this tactic you will wipe out even a Tiger-Company :)

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War is in my heart

Death is by my side!

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:

When you can't flank, how can you use these tanks?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hiram,

I don't mix Stus and Shermies together. A few pointers which might help:

- Stuarts support my recon infantry and pinpoint (by dying sometimes smile.gif) enemy tanks and AT Guns. I rely on their speed running from cover to cover, to keep them alive.

- Like you said, Shermans are good at flanking, due to their speed and fast turret. The recon force should help understand if flanking is possible.

- If flanking is not possible, hit en masse, better from two different directions, so that you can have at least one shot at an enemy tank's flank. The closer you can move, the better. Use cover and terrain as much as possible.

- If you are working on poor tank terrain, consider keeping your tanks in reserve, until after the enemy has shown his full disposition. A tank or two can be devastating in the endgame, forcing captures and panic.

My philosophy for Allied armor (unless I have a Jumbo or similar) is speed and mass.

Regards

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I feel like I'm standing in front of the monkey cage at the zoo. - HiramS

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Thanks for all the tips.

Another question - Stuarts - They have so much HE and I would love to use them in a sort of an arty role. But, they are so fragile. That is why I mix them with Shermans. The problem I'm encountering is that the Shermans seem so fragile too. hehe I spoiled myself by playing Axis too often and now I don't know how to play Allied Armor. I can't just sit and trade shot for shot.

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:

I spoiled myself by playing Axis too often and now I don't know how to play Allied Armor. I can't just sit and trade shot for shot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Leave those US metal coffins aside! You really should try out the Churchills. For infantry HE support

nothing beats a Curchill VIII, the only downside is that it costs plenty of points.

Cheers

Olle

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:

I spoiled myself by playing Axis too often and now I don't know how to play Allied Armor. I can't just sit and trade shot for shot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Leave those US metal coffins aside! You really should try out the Churchills. For infantry HE support

nothing beats a Curchill VIII, the only downside is that it costs plenty of points.

Cheers

Olle

I acknowledge that we all have our favorites when it comes to armor. My favorite is still the Stuart. I'm just trying to figure out how to end the battle with one still intact.

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal

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My take on the issue is that Stuarts and Sherman (75)s are infantry support vehicles. If you are playing with Fionns's "75" rule Shermans can double as AT units as well, but in any other case you must use US armor as they were used historically: Shermans and Stuarts as infantry support and tank destroyers as, well, tank destroyers.

If there is no restrictions on the purchase of armor I would ignore Shermans altogether and buy 4 Stuarts as dedicated inf. sup. and 2 M10 Wolverines as my AT assets. All of these vehicles cost about 90 pts each and are very capable for the cost. In a battalion level game I would assign 1 Stuart to each company and keep the 2 M10s together at all times to work as a team against enemy armor.

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You mean my Java coded Real Time Bar Fight Simulator Madmatt Mission: Beyond BiteMe ISN'T going to be published?!?

Madmatt

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 12-05-2000).]

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Stuarts and Shermans both rock in killing squishy things, its when they run up against German heavies and Panthers that they have problems. With Stuarts, use then to dart from cover to cover and either to kill enemy infantry or light armor. With Shemans, if possible, determine what you are up against. If it is Mark IVs or StuGs, or other tanks that they can kill, you have a fair chance. I like to operate Shemans (actually most armor) in pairs when I can. Keep them close together so that they have basically the same line of sight. Then when you have one enemy tank in line of sight, chances are that you will get off two shots for every return shot. Keep your armor in locations that they are exposed to at most one enemy tank at a time if possible.

If operating against German armor that can't be penetrated from the front, use more than one pair (or individual tanks if you only have a couple) to attack from more than one location. Even if you can't get to the enemy's flank, fire from the far sides of the line will often produce side shots as the enemy tank responds to one threat or another. Try not to expose yourself until all your tanks are in position to shoot.

Also, I generally trail my infantry by a fair distance with my tanks, depending upon visibility. This lets the infantry find the antitank threats, and tanks are still very effective from behind the infantry.

An even better way to kill German armor is to use the proper tools. TDs such as the M36 and M18 are very good at their jobs so long as you stalk your enemy and don't try a slugging match.

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We are fierce historical inaccuracers

- PawBroon

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I played vs the AI last night and I had Stuarts and Shermans. I have a sneaky feeling I only won because he kept shooting smoke at me. My stuart was successfull in taking out a panzer IVH because I came out of the woods and flanked him. The presenting of two shermans as targets helped me kill one axis tank but I lost both damn shermans. I need to add reverse to my hunt.

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal

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What's fun is comparing the relative strengths of the Allied armor and Axis armor.

Play the Wittmann operation. Each time I play as Axis, I eliminate or capture EVERY single crew, tank, squad, HQ, and gun. My ending morale for each operation? 98% Axis 0% Allied

When I play as Allied? Oh, that's just not something I want to share. I'm still up writing all those "I'm sorry, but your son is dead" letters. *shudder*

For your armor to win, you have to do the same thing the Germans had to do to the Russians. Use overwhelming numbers, and more intelligent tactics.

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Hiram,

The fact that you beat the AI because it smoked YOU out should tell you something. I spend plenty of points on high volume, low yield FO's, and then smoke like hell. Mechanized infantry push on 1 flank? Smoke it! Light and med. infantry support tanks rushing the other flank? Smoke it.

It's all well and fine for a Tiger to sit out at 2000 meters plus and "plink" stu's and shermans. But if you're IN those stu's and shermans and have limited cover or map area to rape his flanks, then your best bet is usually to get right in his face as quickly as you can.

Smoke your advance. Smoke a faux advance for feint. Upon arrival, smoke HIS position and roll in amongst him. If you can make use of allied turret speed in close quarters, it might make the difference. (roll a sherm. up behind a KTiger and watch his gunner scramble to turn the turret when the smoke clears. It takes a day to swivel that hog!)

Smoke! Smoke! Smoke!

Anyway, these are merely my .02

Clubfoot.

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I was thinking more like I was expecting either Hollow Charge or HE to come my way and he shot smoke instead. I was just grateful to still have those two shermans for another round.

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Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. - Blaise Pascal

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Guest Mikey D

Shermans against Germans (hey, that rhymes!) with no opportunity to flank, my best advise is to sit quiet and wait for him to make the first mistake. Put smoke in his path, and you reposition while he's blind. This'll also make him reposition too. If you're lucky he'll get careless and present his rear to you.

The more brutal approach may be to charge him with all your infantry. Maybe he'll run out of ammo killing all your grunts! not the most humane way to fight.

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If possible, do your tank fighting in areas where those slow German turrets can't traverse fast enough to catch you. Cities and dense woods are ideal. Duck behind buildings, and wait until you have a good flanking shot before you dart out from cover.

Try playing the Villars Bocage scenario as the British. (•••Spoilers•••)

It's dead easy with the right tactics. All you have to do is scatter your cromwells, hiding behind every house. When the tigers come into the town after the VL, have your croms keep darting across the streets on their flanks. The tigers won't be able to turn their turrets fast enough to engage you, and eventually you'll get enough lucky flank shots to kill them all. Use all those halftracks for bait, they're pretty expendable in this scenario. If you can win without using the fireflys, you're doing great.

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Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

-Commercial fishing in Kodiak, Alaska

[This message has been edited by 109 Gustav (edited 12-11-2000).]

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