Guest Germanboy Posted August 14, 2000 Share Posted August 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar: Why are so many of the alleged "grognards" like Gerbiltoy ( )say killing off prisoners is "unrealistic"? It was done all the time, as many have pointed out already.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Who has ever alleged I am a grognard? Certainly not me, and last time I checked nobody else did. If someone did, I would sue them for libel! While POWs were shot all the time, it was still a minor occurence on the Western front. The vast majority of men surrendering where accepted. A good example is Arnhem, where the paras really did not have the facilities to take German POWs, but still did on a large scale, rather than gun them down. There may of course be a connection with the fact that they were well aware that they might end up as POWs themselves soon. The situation was of course different on the Eastern front, as I am also well aware. Apart from the realism, it is also a moral question to me. You ought to accept the surrender of your opponent and treat him according to the rules of land warfare. It just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth to see POWs being executed, and I don't need that in my games. And I don't want to get in a discussion along the lines of 'don't play wargames then' or something like that. That is my opinion, I am not going to play people who state upfront that they machine-gun POWs, and if someone does do it I won't play them again. I don't claim for that to be a rule that everyone has to follow, as I am not in the possession of superior truth. It is a matter of personal taste, and best be left at that. BTW, a very good discussion of the 'captor's dilemma', whether to accept surrender or not can be found in Niall Ferguson's 'The pity of war'. This is about WW I, but still very relevant. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rommel22 Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 I wouldn't shoot the POW's, I would use them to search out minefields and such. thats pretty much it. ------------------ From the Das Reich book as said by a German soldier "when the Russians reached us, we opened fire, the first wave had no weapons. The second wave didn't either (fire fodder). The 3rd and 4th had weapons and opened fire on us. By this time we were low on ammo, but we drove them back." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popper Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 I can't wait until CM2 comes out. I love rushing attacks and nothing says lovin' like ppsh ppsh equipped Guards infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popper Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 Sending out of ammo troops ahead to find mines and enemy positions is gamesmanship at its worst. I don't know of a non-Russian or Japanese commander that would do that. I really think that folks like artillery spotters and vehicle crews should count double against victory conditions just to prevent this kind of gamesmanship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cypaulding Posted August 16, 2000 Share Posted August 16, 2000 I won't kill prisoners, but I will kill my men who behave cowardly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Check6 Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 WTF? Put yourself in that "cowardly" man's place. That just sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> While POWs were shot all the time, it was still a minor occurence on the Western front. The vast majority of men surrendering where accepted. A good example is Arnhem, where the paras really did not have the facilities to take German POWs, but still did on a large scale, rather than gun them down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Define "minor," please. The Arnhem battle also being of course an instance of the much-maligned-in-other-currnet-threads-Waffen-SS exhibiting several and rather large displays of "chivalry." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aka PanzerLeader Posted August 27, 2000 Share Posted August 27, 2000 I can't wait for CM2. One interesting thing to experiment, as the Germans, would be to send Soviet prisoners back toward the Russian lines and see them get shot by NKVD troops and political commissars... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted August 27, 2000 Share Posted August 27, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka PanzerLeader: I can't wait for CM2. One interesting thing to experiment, as the Germans, would be to send Soviet prisoners back toward the Russian lines and see them get shot by NKVD troops and political commissars...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Surely you are not forgetting that both the Germans and the Soviets had punishment batallions, which were the closest thing to a death sentence. Henri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted August 28, 2000 Share Posted August 28, 2000 Actually, sending men with reduced ammo/numbers out to scout for mines or enemy positions were used by both sides during the later part of the Eastern front. One must remember that once the Germans were loosing ground, men, and equipment they became as desperate as the Russians they were fighting. Although the disregard for life never went as high as with the Soviets, many Germans commanders would send infantry out to "detect" mines rather then have their expensive and rare Panzers get blown to hell. ------------------ "...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..." - Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted August 29, 2000 Share Posted August 29, 2000 I don't shoot prisoners because it never occured to me to do so. to be honest it seems like a rather childish thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oberst Angsthase Posted August 29, 2000 Share Posted August 29, 2000 I don't shoot prisoners either. Partly because I would like to believe I could be chivalrous if I were in that situation, and partly because most of my units end their battles with LOW ammo. It is a wonderful thing to blow a coworker away in a Quake deathmatch, but it is an entirely different action to commit a virtual warcrime. I would LOVE to see this feature added: Move a prisoner to an otherwise unemployed HQ unit. For each prisoner there is a chance that the HQ unit will gain some intelligence, like the position of a machine gun nest, or gain complete information about a sound contact. The lower the quality of the troops, the higher the chance they will talk. The higher the rank of the prisoner the more intelligence they can provide. Granted, in 20 turn games this will not account for much, but in longer games, or operations this could be the difference between winning and losing. It would also make the company and battalion HQs much more valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kitty: Define "minor," please. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I did, in the following sentence. What's your point? ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Rock: I don't shoot prisoners because it never occured to me to do so. to be honest it seems like a rather childish thing to do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Could not have said it more concisely myself. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feuhrerguy Posted August 30, 2000 Share Posted August 30, 2000 Sorry to burst your gaminess bubble but as of v1.04 you can't use captured units to set off mines. Quoted from the readme file v1.05: "* Captured units cannot set off mines. And the code that checks for captured units escaping has been extended to allow units to escape (sometimes) even when enemy guards are nearby, provided that nearby friendly forces have a significant local superiority." Looks like the smartest thing to do is march the captured units off of your closest friendly map edge if you want to assure the capture points. Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian Rock: I don't shoot prisoners because it never occured to me to do so. to be honest it seems like a rather childish thing to do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It is an *extremely* childish thing to do, and a stupid one too in light of the fact that live prisoners net more victory points than dead ones. People who shoot prisoners should themselves be shot...by their own side. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Brizee Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 If there were lots of mines about, I send POW's forward to find them for me. What is so bad about that? It is better THEIR men than MY men. If you were a platoon CO, would you rather send your boys forward into danger or the guys who were shooting at you 5 min ago? Doesn't matter anynore though since we can't do it anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 31, 2000 Share Posted August 31, 2000 Well, strange as it may seem, the only time I didn't spot a minefield before I ran over it was once with a jeep. All the rest, and there've been dozens, I've spotted in plenty of time to avoid. On the more philosophical note, there are several reasons why prisoners should be well treated (we're talking about in the real world now). The first is that you want the enemy to surrender rather than continue resisting you. I trust that is plain enough. If you treat prisoners well, the word gets around, and the enemy troops are more willing to lay down their arms rather than get killed or maimed once that looks likely. If you treat them in a callous and brutal manner, that word gets around too. Then the enemy troops decide that there is no percentage in surrendering and they resist fanatically. Your buddies who have to go in to root out these stubborn defenders might not think you are such a great guy, and if you show an inclination to continue your inhuman practices might just arrange for you to have a little "accident"...of the fatal variety. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frunze Posted March 19, 2002 Share Posted March 19, 2002 IRL, if you developed a reputation for kiling prisoners, it would tend to make the enemy reluctant to surrender. But hey, if you wanted your enemies to fight with suicidal courage, that'd be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted March 25, 2002 Share Posted March 25, 2002 Funniest part of this whole thing is I read my post from way back (on page 1) and man how I have changed my tactics. Just thought it was funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianc Posted April 4, 2002 Share Posted April 4, 2002 Why are so many of the alleged "grognards" like Gerbiltoy say killing off prisoners is "unrealistic"?Realistic it may be, but it's just not sporting old chap! ianc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted April 4, 2002 Share Posted April 4, 2002 Take my prisoners, please. This is actually happing now in one of my pbem games. My crack Brit HQ is sitting in a foxhole with a captured german mg crew of 5. It was great when it happened ! Perfect execution of making them put their heads down and then charging. EXCEPT. I am on a commando mission. I was afraid to leave the mg crew and move ahead to catch my HQ up with the rest of the blokes since they might recover and start machine gunning us from the rear. Now most of my boys are out of cc and apparently have paid the ultimate price. Maybe my HQ could have helped them out. I'll never know. If I had left the mg crew and moved ahead my HQ certainly would have helped out in the firefight. In addition I have a second wave coming up. If I left the mg crew, it could have recovered to shoot at the next wave as well. Now what do I do? Move out and help the remnants of the platoon and disregard the mg crew? Shoot the crew to protect my back? and then move out. I suppose I could let the second wave deal with them? But what if they can't? My lads are dying up there. And the HQ is back here babysitting. What would you do? ( If I wait in this foxhole to think for a few more turns, then the problem will be over.) Who killed Lt. Miller ? Toad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisbech_lad Posted April 4, 2002 Share Posted April 4, 2002 Re value of chivalry in war. Lt Jary in “18 Platoon” relates a time when his platoon come across a wounded German colonel in a small town. He evacuates the officer, and insists that his men salute the stretcher. The word gets round the German garrison, and 100 or so of them come forward to surrender. So maybe CM should lower your opponents global morale if you evacuate prisoners, and raise it if you kill them… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl Carrot Posted April 4, 2002 Share Posted April 4, 2002 Mr Toad. If the MG crew escapes, they will have no weopenry, and hence not much of a threat. They will also probably head back to their own lines and run into your troops anyway. My two cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louie the Toad Posted April 4, 2002 Share Posted April 4, 2002 Dear Cpl Carrot, I decided to send them into some nearby barbed wire. That oughta hold em for awhile. I will have to see what happens next. Mr. Toad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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