Button-it you complete tanker

[GRUMLIN]

Sigh. I know this has been mentioned before, but tankcrews unbuttoning under their own steam is a real problem. I just lost a stug at a vital moment in a game - I knew there was a sniper in a nearby patch of woods, and buttoned the stug up whilst I 'advanced' a unit of grenadiers through some dead ground to wipe the nasty sniper out. The stug was to hunt over a hill and take an IS-2 in the rear (I had spent 28 turns manuevering to get the rearshot), this was turn 29

Next turn, stug unbuttoned of its own accord. PING. dead commander, stug shocked, no movement this turn (and prob next). My infantry assault into the sniper 30 seconds later and wipe the floor with him, but by then its all too late.

Any chance of a 'DONT UNBUTTON OR I'LL KILL YA MESELF' command?

Grum :mad:

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Possibly the reason the Stug unbuttoned was because of the hunt order you gave it. The TacAI probably wanted to ensure the Stug had the maximum chance to identify any enemy units once it reached the crest, so unbuttoned. Remeber, it doesn't have any memory of enemy units once they've disappeared from sight so this is really the problem.

I know it's not any help now but I guess you've now learnt to time any hunt command in future to co-incide with when your troops are likely to reach the source of any threat to your AFV's.

Regards

Jim R.

[arkai88]

I tend to agree that most tank commanders would never even think of opening up during combat, especially if enemy infantry was known to be present.

[MrSpkr]

Originally posted by arkai88:

I tend to agree that most tank commanders would never even think of opening up during combat, especially if enemy infantry was known to be present.

Maybe not in modern armor, with good communications, etc., but in WWII? I repectfully disagree.

Next time you have a chance, climb aboard a WWII era tank, get inside, and look out through the narrow vision slit for the driver. You can't see squat -- just a narrow arc in front of the vehicle. Now imagine trying to look out that slit while driving 15-25 mph over uneven ground, bouncing up and down. Pull your head back from the edge of the slit (because you don't want to split your head open banging it against the armor when the tank hits a dip or a bump. Of course, this makes it even more difficult to see anything.

Better hope and pray there isn't an enemy AT gun or AFV 5 degrees outside of that vision cone -- cause you ain't gonna see it.

Given all that, a tank commander (and possibly the driver) are almost CERTAINLY going to be looking out the hatch as much as possible, buttoning up only when there is a direct and immediate threat to their well being (and popping right back out when that direct and immediate threat appears to have passed).

Steve

[GRUMLIN]

Jim R - good points, but I bet that even if I had paused the hunt command for 30 seconds the buggers would have still unbuttoned to have a fag or two.....

What annoy me in this is that the threat was identified by the stug themselves, and was being dealt with...but the AI showed no 'memory' as you said.

G

[Slappy]

Grumlin,

Any chance of a turn between posts, or is there some chance that I am the one delinquent here?

Slappy

[SgtMuhammed]

Just a quick note about crews unbuttoning. It is doctrine for crews to unbutton unless they are actually being fired upon. Modern tanks such as the M1 have a half cocked position on the commanders hatch to allow them to look out while retaining some protection but it is still normal practice for them to ride with at least their head and shoulders sticking out of the turret. In the Israeli army the tank commander is considered to be the most dangerous job in the service. Those guys almost never button up. This doctrine was also followed by German crews in WWII as well as today.

I spent 10 years fighting with and against American and Nato armor as both a line grunt and an OPFOR BMP commander and can tell you from experience that most crews will fight unbuttoned if given the choice.

[GRUMLIN]

Slappy and my other opponents - my isp trashed a whole load of emails so please SEND AGAIN and we will continue.

On the buttoning issue, my grouch is that if they buttoned up cos of a sniper, and havent been told that he is gone, WHY OH WHY open up again?

G

[Foxbat]

Originally posted by GRUMLIN:

Slappy and my other opponents - my isp trashed a whole load of emails so please SEND AGAIN and we will continue.

On the buttoning issue, my grouch is that if they buttoned up cos of a sniper, and havent been told that he is gone, WHY OH WHY open up again?

G

Would you rather be blind and stupid (aka buttoned up) and definitly dead, or take a risk and get a chance to live or die as the dice may fall?

If I get the choice I wouldn't lock myself up in a coffin depriving myself of all-round vision, situational awareness, sound awarness, visual awarness (remember buttoned up is pepping through the periscope or using the "vision" blocks, so named because they allows slightly better vision than armor plate) I would go out and fight. Now my Commander in Chief (aka the player) may know what's good for me, but I would still want to fight my own battle rather than placing my faith in someone hovering over the battlefield

[Sgt CDAT]

Originally posted by GRUMLIN:

I just lost a stug at a vital moment in a game

Thats Life!

I knew there was a sniper in a nearby patch of woods

But did he know that?

They don't call us DATs for nothing!

[KEEF888]

Originally posted by GRUMLIN:

Sigh. I know this has been mentioned before, but tankcrews unbuttoning under their own steam is a real problem. I just lost a stug at a vital moment in a game - I knew there was a sniper in a nearby patch of woods,

Exactly - you knew there was a sniper out there, but that's because even with EFOW on, the player still has a much more omnipotent view/assessment of the map/situation than he would in real life.

[tracer]

Isn't this a great game!!

[manchildstein (ii)]

my impression is that, indeed if an afv is using 'hunt' it will probably unbutton... but if you use 'move' or 'fast' it will have a better chance of staying buttoned... this was simply my impression and i noticed someone on this thread mentioned it so i thought i would mention it again...

so i'm wondering... if fog of war is turned off... will tank crews stay buttoned?

[arkai88]

Hmm - every book I've ever read taken from personal accounts of WW2 gave me the very strong impression that once the furball began - the tank stayed buttoned up.

In panzer aces it is mentioned quite frequently that the tanks were 'secured' even before entering the combat area due to the Russians heavy use of artillery and at-rifles even into the later part of the war.

[B.B.Toys]

One solution to premature unbuttoning may be a gamey one. You can unbutton a buttoned up tank in the last turn and then button it up again before hitting GO. I think that it takes the TacAI at least one turn to decide to unbutton on its own so this should take care of business. Presumably this can be repeated as needed. Perhaps someone can actually try to see whether this works or not though.

[Bartokomus]

Originally posted by arkai88:

I tend to agree that most tank commanders would never even think of opening up during combat, especially if enemy infantry was known to be present.

Just watched a special on Tigers featuring German Ace Otto Carius. He drove with the hatch open at all times he claimed, becuase it was imperative he be able to survey the battlefield. In addition, i have read about many commanders exiting their tanks during lulls in the action, to do some foot recon