Michael Emrys Posted November 30, 2003 Share Posted November 30, 2003 The 2pdr and even the 6pdr portees are an integral part of North African lore. Now I have come across a reference and photo of French 75mm field gun being used in this fashion, apparently by Free French forces in North Africa. The February, 2004 issue of Military History has a brief article on the history of the 75 and there on page 12 is a photo of the portee. I don't know about the rest of you, but this one is new to me. I would assume it to be a relatively rare occurrence. Now I wonder if it made it into the game as part of the Free French arsenal. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trommelfeuer Posted November 30, 2003 Share Posted November 30, 2003 From Bir Hacheim: May 27th - June 11th, 1942: ...As dawn breaks at Bir Hacheim, the 1st Free French Brigade is dug in. This colorful force consists of two battalions of white-kepied Foreign Legionnaires, Marines, colonial infantry, Senegalese and Chad infantry. The French are backed with obsolescent but quick-firing 75mm guns, the "soixante-quinze" of World War I, overhauled in Beirut workshops,...Perhaps it's the "soixante-quinze" you're looking for ? Howitzer of French origin, made in the USA, delivered to the British in the frame of Lend & Lease and served here by Polish soldiers training in Scotland in 1941. Except for the tired wheels, the weapons was little different from the WWI 75mm Model 1897 This gun, a modified 75mm Model 1897, was used as an anti-tank gun by the Free French troops under General König at Bir Hacheim between 26th May and 11th June 1942. It has a dramatically cut-down carriage and gun-shield to suit this role.Like the standard 75mm Model 1897, there is no muzzle-brake. ...or I misunderstood the question and you want to know more about the 75mm gun portee...perhaps this one ? An Austrian ADAZ (Austro-Daimler Artillerie Zugmaschine or Austro-Daimler Artillery Tractor), also known as a gZ20 is shown in the photo on the top left. It was manufactured from 1935-1937 at the Steyr-Daimler-Puch factory at Steyr, Austria. The vehicle had 6-wheel drive, 150 PS horsepower and could tow 5 tons (it could carry further 3.5 tons). The vehicle was used after 1938 by the Wehrmacht, too. Only a small quantity were constructed which makes it rather rare to see it in foreign use.Source: http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/france/France.htm Greetings, Sven [ November 30, 2003, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Trommelfeuer ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denwad Posted November 30, 2003 Share Posted November 30, 2003 what about the laffly S-20 with the Sa Mle 1934 in portee? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 1, 2003 Author Share Posted December 1, 2003 Trommelfeuer, Thanks for the rare and interesting photographs. I fear however that the meaning of my post may have been lost. I am somewhat familiar with the "soixante-quinze" and have been for years. What was new to me was its use en portee, and this does not merely mean being transported on the back of a truck, but fired from one as well. The photo that accompanied the article I referred to seems to show a 75 that is intended to be fired en portee. Whether this was ever actually done in combat I presently have no idea. The photo credit was to the Imperial War Museum and I am wondering if they have a file of online photos available to the public? Thanks anyway. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: The photo credit was to the Imperial War Museum and I am wondering if they have a file of online photos available to the public? Their catalogue is online, but it looks like you have to visit or contact them for the actual photos. (Off topic: When I glanced just now I did find a brief clip of an interview with Ken Tout about the end of Wittman - 'In real war everybody hides, so there's not much to see...') 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trommelfeuer Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 I think I found a ( small ) photo of the "Free French improvised self-propelled gun, with 75mm Mle 1897 Schneider gun on a truck, partially armoured." Found it HERE. Now if I could only read what's written there, looks something like "Lt Conua, chasseur de ?, createur du Conua gun, 75 sur ...?" Greetings, Sven 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 1, 2003 Author Share Posted December 1, 2003 Very interesting. That's different from the one depicted in Military History which has only the usualy gunshield for armor. Seems to be on a different model of truck too, which isn't surprising. The photo you turned up raises the intriguing question of whether the FF had some of these in action at Bir Hakeim. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trommelfeuer Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Just found another one: In THIS source, there's some information about this... Les hommes de la D.F.L. se livrent à des actions offensives en jock columns, formation réunissant de l’infanterie et deux ou trois canons de 75 tractés ou portés sur camion.THIS source tells about three 75mm gun portees at Bir Hacheim: La place est divisée en trois secteurs, chacun attribué à un bataillon. Le 2e bataillon de la Légion étrangère occupe la façade Est alors que le 3e reste en réserve. Il constitue l'essentiel des groupes mobiles - fort d'une compagnie, de plusieurs canons 75, de 25 ou antiaériens portés - qui effectuent des reconnaissances en profondeur souvent loin de Bir Hakeim.. A partir du 20 mai, le 3e bataillon de la Légion étrangère forme un groupement chargé de la surveillance du champs de mines avec trois sections de bren carriers, trois 75 portés, une équipe téléphonique, des radios et une équipe de sapeurs-démineurs. Sous les ordres du capitaine de Lamaze, il établit sa base de départ une quinzaine de kilomètres au nord du camp retranché.Greetings, Sven [ December 01, 2003, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: Trommelfeuer ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 1, 2003 Author Share Posted December 1, 2003 Originally posted by Trommelfeuer: Just found another one: Okay, that's the exact shot appearing in the magazine article, although there it is clearer and sharper. Interesting information accompanying; I wish I read French, although from what I can make out it appears that they did have a battery of portees at bir Hakeim. Michael [ December 01, 2003, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
athkatla Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Originally posted by Firefly: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys: The photo credit was to the Imperial War Museum and I am wondering if they have a file of online photos available to the public? Their catalogue is online, but it looks like you have to visit or contact them for the actual photos. (Off topic: When I glanced just now I did find a brief clip of an interview with Ken Tout about the end of Wittman - 'In real war everybody hides, so there's not much to see...') </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted December 1, 2003 Share Posted December 1, 2003 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: I wish I read FrenchYeah, sure you wish. You'd just like to know if Vin Rouge in a bottle label means that it is made in a rogue nation. Why don't you just save everyone from the embarrassment and use Babelfish? Or never mind, I'll do it for you. Aren't I nice? The men of the D.F.L. devote themselves to offensive actions in jock columns, formation joining together of l?infantery and two or three guns of 75 tractor drawn or related to truck. The place is divided into three sectors, each one allotted to a battalion. The 2e battalion of the foreign Legion occupies the frontage Is whereas the 3e remains in reserve. It constitutes the main part of the mobile groups - extremely of a company, several guns 75, of 25 or anti-aircraft carried - which often carry out recognitions in-depth far from Bir Hakeim.. From May 20, the 3e battalion of the foreign Legion forms a grouping in charge of the monitoring of the minefields with three sections of bren carriers, three 75 carried, a telephone team, radios and a team of sapper-bomb disposal experts. Under the orders of the captain of Lamaze, it establishes its starting base about fifteen kilometers in the north of the fortified camp. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted December 1, 2003 Author Share Posted December 1, 2003 Ugh. What a weird language French is! I guess I'm just as well off I don't read it. Probably it would do something strange to my head, like make me wear a beret, smoke Gauloise cigarettes, and read existential novels and Le fleurs du mal or something. :eek: Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webs Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Check this out: http://www.wwiitechpubs.info/garage/afv-francaise/afv-fr-tr-laffly-s20tl/afv-fr-tr-laffly-s20tl-br.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 My un-Babel, non-fish translation - The men of the DFL fought offensively in "jock columns", made of infantry and 2 or 3 towed or truck portee 75mms... The place was divided into 3 sectors, each assigned to one battalion. The 2nd battalion of the foreign legion took the east face, while the 3rd remained in reserve. It (i.e. the reserve) consisted essentially of mobile groups - with a strength of one company, and a number of 75mm, 25 pdr, or mounted AA guns - who did reconnaissance in force far from Bir Hakeim. After May 20th, the 3rd battalion of the foreign legion formed a group to watch the minefields with 3 sections of Bren carriers (means 9 vehicles), 3 75mm portees, a telephone set and radios, and a team (platoon, probably) of mine-clearers (engineers). Commanded by Captain Lamaze, they set up an outpost 15 kilometers north of the base. Only one unambiguous reference to 75mm portees and that isn't to firing from the mounts, only to moving them that way. The passage is mostly explaining how they used their reserve battalion, which instead of remaining in the "box" sent out company sized motorized patrols with a battery each, for support. The mine watching section differed only in specifically being Bren mounted (rather than trucked) and having added engineers and comm equipment, and remaining outside the "box" at their own outpost, presumably to reduce their patrol distances to distant parts of the minefields. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefly Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Originally posted by athkatla: I have a book by Ken Tout called Tanks, Advance! Get hold of his book, Tank if you can, it's been desribed as the best books ever on WW2 tank warfare. It's set in Normandy, so probably a bit off-topic for this forum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 OK, so I'm late to the party, but since I have a much clearer picture, I thought I'd slap it up: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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