Froggies ?

[Los]

Ellis' Cassino book confirms what TRL is saying. In fact either in that book or somewhere else in a Cassino book, I have seen these troops. IIRC they are wearing French helmets and have these wazoo quilted traditional wool overcoats type things (that actually look warmer than what the normal issue overcoats. Sorry but am at work and can't give more confirm than that right now.

Los

[ October 15, 2003, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Los ]

[Thin Red Line]

Goumier (Moroccon troops) 1943

[JonS]

In my earlier posts I was kind-of ignoring the colonial troops, since they were so different, and never became mainstream (as it were). Incidentally, it seems the French have quite a strong history in the raising and utilising of indigenous forces (see: Indochina for more examples).

In addition to dress, the colonial units had quite different TsO&E which made them particularly suited for mountain warfare (or vice versa). And naturally, after throwing out such a tasty tidbit, I have no sources to hand to back that up Anyway, one I can think of that has quite a long section on the French colonial forces is Bidwell & Graham, Tug of War. The authours give Juin and his merry men a huge thumbs-up for their performance in May 1944.

Regards

JonS

[Los]

TRL thanks for the pic, I have the same book ("The Armed Forces of WW2:Uniforms Insignia and Organization") by Andrew Mollo. I'll quote a passage:

"French African and Colonial troops continued to wear their existing uniforms as long as possible until they were replaced by British or American uniforms and equipment. American uniform was supplied in vast quantities so by the time the French Expeditionary Corps landed in Italy it was dressed in American uniforms with French Headdress (when available) and French Insignia."

TRL's picture above depicts a Goumier in Italy. He's wearing a brit helmet over his turban. The FEC had five such regiments (maybe about a third of the FEC infantry strength). Another picture shows French North African troops (perhaps Algerians or colonial troops as most look white)wearing US equipment but all sporting French Helmets adorned with camo netting.

Los

[Xavier]

Anybody knows what is exactly a "Goum" and a "Tabor"? In my understanding a tabor is quite like a bataillon and a goum like a company in size... :confused:

[Thin Red Line]

Xavier, you're right.

A Group of Tabor (GTM) is approximately the size of a regiment and is composed of one HQ tabor ("hors-rang") and three combat tabors each divided into four infantry goums and one HQ ("hors-rang") goum.

More info here (in french)

[junk2drive]

Since it's a slow day in the forums, I thought I'd drag up this thread. Fun to read what we were looking for in CMAK before it came out.

There are some good French battles recently and I wondered about the use of Springfield rifles by the French in CMAK. Seems to me they would have gotten Lee Enfields from the Brits or Garands from the USA. Since they have USA uniforms, I vote for the Garands.

[junk2drive]

My reply to Micheal Dorosh in the other thread, RE: patch request

MD, Yes. Looking through the French kit, (Thanks to Folke's CMAKdb site and some recent French battles) I see USA MG's and AFV's with a pitiful firepower from the Springfields. You get your choice of grease gun or tommy gun, but only a bolt action rifle???

[Michael Emrys]

Are they getting Springfields all through the war, or only in the early years? I can see them getting Springfields the first year after Torch, and then Garands after that.

Michael

[junk2drive]

Rifle 40 dec40-nov42 LE and Bren

Rifle 42 jan42-sep42 MAS and Chat

Rifle 43 and 44 dec43-jul44 Springfields

Above according to CMAKdb, I did not verify the dates.

[Sequoia]

Seems as if it would be relatively easy to Mod the Vichy French from the Italians using existing bitmaps. How good a fit would Italian infantry be?

[junk2drive]

The more I ponder this situation, the more it puzzles me. I just don't understand BFC's idea of Springfields. If the early war French have MAS rifles, later they should have brought them along or received kit from the Brits, LE's like the rest of the CW troops or the USA, M1's. Most countries in the CM series used standardized ammo. Did the Springfield share ammo with one of the above? Were they leftover from the Marines or something? Did they capture a warehouse full of them? I can't imagine someone in power shipping a boatload over just for the French.

Can someone help me understand?

[junk2drive]

Sequoia, I had to go look at CMAKdb. The firepower of the Italians is worse than the Free French, lol. Except for the Airborne. You can use the AB after 43 or the uniforms get all screwd up. I guess if someone wanted to make a battle with Vichy vs someone they could do a uniform mod and the flags. RE: your question, probably a good fit.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

The more I ponder this situation, the more it puzzles me. I just don't understand BFC's idea of Springfields. If the early war French have MAS rifles, later they should have brought them along or received kit from the Brits, LE's like the rest of the CW troops or the USA, M1's. Most countries in the CM series used standardized ammo. Did the Springfield share ammo with one of the above? Were they leftover from the Marines or something? Did they capture a warehouse full of them? I can't imagine someone in power shipping a boatload over just for the French.

Can someone help me understand?

Sharpshooters in Army units and I think headquarters units were armed with the Springfield even after the M-1 Garand was adopted - I thought JonS posted a link to some info on that. It fired 30.06 ammo just like the M-1 IIRC.

[junk2drive]

Thanks MD, at least the ammo makes sense. It may be historical to have them with Springfields. I that case did the French get leftovers that were "good enough", or did they feel more comfy with bolt action? Maybe the French turned down an offer of M-1's. The Marines didn't want them early on.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by junk2drive:

Thanks MD, at least the ammo makes sense. It may be historical to have them with Springfields. I that case did the French get leftovers that were "good enough", or did they feel more comfy with bolt action? Maybe the French turned down an offer of M-1's. The Marines didn't want them early on.

Yes, Dorosh is right about both rifles using the same ammo. And once the US took over arming and supplying the French (sometime around the middle of '43?), they would want them using ammo already in the pipeline.

As for why give them Springfields instead of Garands, it might have been a matter of supply and demand. Production of the Garand had trouble keeping up with the rapid expansion of the US armed forces the first year or two of US beligerency. I don't have numbers—I suppose they are floating around somewhere on the web—but it may have been the middle of '44 or even later before there were enough to start handing them out to allies. Meanwhile, there were plenty of Springfields still in storage.

Michael

[junk2drive]

Thanks ME, nice to see you posting again.

[David I]

If you want a very good and painless history of Vichy France and how it fit in with French/German/Allied politics and war, watch the documentary "The Sorrow & the Pity". Nominated for(won?) the Academy award for best foriegn movie & best documentary back in '70 something.

Awesome movie. Deals with the surrender in 40 the forming of the Vichy government, the gradual fascistization (if that's a word) of the Gov., British sinking of the French Fleet, Resistance, Collaberation,etc, etc.

One of my favorite scenes is in a German Propaganda filmed in '42 showing happy Frenchmen going off to do "Voluntary" work in Germany. The German "Corrispondent" askes one of the Frenchmen "And how long have you been unemployed?". The Frenchman looks up and says

"Two Years", but his face says "Ever since you invaded my country you kraut bastard".

Again that's "The Sorrow & the Pity" by Marcel Ophuls. Available at a good library or for purchase from BELLE & BLADE.

David I

[SpitfireXI]

I always wondered about the French arms, but what also puzzles me is why are they still modeled having 'Adrian' helmets? I thought the Free French were wholly equipped using American/British equipment. Any one know the details?

[Joel]

As one who helped Steve on French matters for CMAK, I'll try to clear up some points mentioned above.

I think the most important point to keep in mind is that the Free French equipment was in no way standardized, even after US deliveries. Thus the French representation in CMAK had to be a compromise, or would have needed far too much work proportionally to their numbers and operational importance.

The rifles :

Before Torch, the few Free French units (mainly Leclerc's column in Chad and 1st FF Brigade group from Bir Hacheim fame) had a mix of British and French weapons, from WW1 vintage rifles to MAS and British Lee Enfields. The 1st FF Brigade Group then became 1st FF Division and was (almost) entirely re-equipped with British weapons.

After Torch, colonial troops in North Africa joined the Allies with their weapons (a mix of MAS and old rifles as individual weapons) then the Anfa agreements were signed that provided a frame to re-equip a number of French divisions based on US TOE.

So most infantry formations were supposed to be issued the same weapons as their US counterparts, however due to some shortages almost none got any Garand M1, they instead got Springfield 1903 or Enfield 1917 rifles. That point is mentioned in almost every inspection report I've read (the French divisions had to go through a US-led inspection after re-equipment and training with US kit, before being sent to Italy.) Springfield rifles seem to be in greater numbers than Enfields for the units in Italy. By the way many units kept these rifles until the end of the war and were never issued the M1, 13th DBLE for instance.

1st Free French division, which had been re-equipped from French to British in October 42, had to follow a crash course for re-equipment with US kit in early 44 to be sent to Italy in April because Alexander wouldn't allow them in a US Army with British equipment (logistical nightmare).

The helmets : it was a matter of compromise again. To make a long story short, there were all kinds of helmets and hats among the Free French troops but a large majority wore French helmets, except most troopers in the 1st Free French Division who kept their British helmets. I don't remember seeing one single pic of French troops in North Africa or Italy wearing US helmets, I guess the deliveries of helmets was not at the top of the list !

[Michael Emrys]

Thanks very much for the information and insight, Joel. Anything you can tell us about how French troops in the ETO were equipped after August, 1944?

Michael

[junk2drive]

Joel, thanks for the insight and clarification. The compromises make sense to me.

I'm wanting to use the French for something else, and I guess I'll just have to deal with it.

The low firepower makes it tough to balance a battle with them. Unless it is against Italians, lol

[Dandelion]

"Rearming the French" (Marcel Vigneras) extensively lists all deliveries made by the US to FF. Types and dates. He also mentions the Springfield issue as described by Joel. Solid quality book, easily obtainable, US Army Special Study series. I even believe they are about to publish it on the internet in extensio.

The French forces in North Africa joining after Torch were not colonials tho. They were just French troops of darker shades. The men came from Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia. Algeria was part of France, the other two were protectorates. The whites appearing in the force (Chasseurs d'Afrique, LE, Zouaves etc) were employed by the Army (French North African Army, a separate entity from the Metropolitain Army), not the Colonial Department.

In the columns from the Western Desert were some colonials. Though only a handful.

I feel it is relevant and justified to have the French wear Adrian post Torch. If they had any, they would. Like all exile troops, the French tried to keep characteristic equipment and insignia. To retain a separate identity. Thus the widespread wearing of the Adrian need not indicate shortages. Just like the Dutch who kept their strange helmet as long as possible, wearing it with British battledress, even though the British most probably offered them Teller helmets.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[junk2drive]

Dandelion, maybe you could squeeze this info into the CMAKdb info box. I do so enjoy reading your posts there.

Thanks to all who replied. So much better than reading a peng thread.

[Dandelion]

Thanks J2D, squeeze is the word Still got some work left on the German OOB tho. If nobody better has ventured into the French by then I'll give it a go. Am still having a super-crashing PC here. Average time between Bluestop o death; 2 minutes.

Cheerio

Dandelion