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PBEM in CMx2


Andreas

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I can understand the want for PBEM but if they need to remove it to make the game they want then thats the way it is and no amount of whining or crying will change the fact. And if that means some refuse to buy simply based on PBEM then that is their loss..there are most likely 10 more that will buy instead.
Why is it that BFC and their shills say garbage like this? Just because we feel differently than they, it means we're whiners and complainers?

Just how does BFC, you, or anyone know there are *likely* ten more that will buy the game for everyone that won't if it has no pbem? I guess you all have your magic eight balls in use everyday.

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Another BFC shill said:

If anything 1% plays CM BB/AK as PBEM. And, who knows if PBEM will be in or not, are you just deliberating not reading what Steve said, or ignoring it? Sheesh, I'm glad I dont have to deal with you as my customer base!

***************

Will you please show us the market research to back this claim?

[ February 28, 2005, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Sanok ]

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Wartgamer, are you on some obsessive journey to reach the highest amount of posts. I've been trawling this forum for over two years now and I don't think that I have ever seen someone post consecutively more than you do. There is no need for two posts when one will do. If you have a new thought, a paragraph is a perfectly acceptable option.

Oh and a speculative HI MOM :D

Cheers

Will

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Great post, Andreas. (Not so much the first one on page 1 as the one on page 3.)

I'll certainly buy the game without PBEM if it betters on the CM experience. Do I like PBEM? Yes. Realistically, though, I don't have time for it and like to putter around with AI games.

Now, on to more important Stuf. Can any of you with more brain cells than the average waffler (not saying much) please waltz over to the CWT and answer my Nimitz-book question?

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Well, I don't have a problem with no PBEM (if indeed it is unworkable) IF they beef up the AI.

Soooo...on my wish list for CMx2 I'll add...

10. Better AI. More/better coordinated attacks.

Maybe with 1x1 representation attacks will be better coordinated? I mean, the AI on attack is pretty easy. AI on defense is credible at least. I've noticed that the AI does a fine job of setting up units in proper cover with decent kill zones and covering arcs....but attacks are truly bugged up. just my opinion though.

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Originally posted by melb_will:

Wartgamer, are you on some obsessive journey to reach the highest amount of posts. I've been trawling this forum for over two years now and I don't think that I have ever seen someone post consecutively more than you do. There is no need for two posts when one will do. If you have a new thought, a paragraph is a perfectly acceptable option.

Oh and a speculative HI MOM :D

Cheers

Will

Thanks for the suggestions.
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Sanok,

Yes, I've known for a while that BFC is excellent at designing games, but poor at customer relations.
I beg to differ smile.gif I think I am EXCELLENT at customer relations. Firstly, I am here... the game designer... here discussing things with customers. Hundreds of big and little suggestions I've read here have made it into our games. This is bad?

Secondly, I tell it like it is instead of all slicked over with PR grease. Or do you think I am not fully capable of blowing smoke up people's asses in order to make my life easier? I can assure you that I'm perfectly capable of lying... I just choose not to. Thirdly, I treat people in the manner that they deserve. Respectful and well reasoned people never have, and never will, get any guff from me. Unreasonable, whiney, demanding, ungreatful, narrow minded, child-like posters get treated like... well, like unreasonable, whiney, demanding, ungreatful, narrow minded, children that they are smile.gif Other companies simply ignore such people, but I choose to engage them in the hopes of forcing them to drop the cowardly "I'm a customer, I'm always right" attitudes so that we can have productive conversations instead. Past experience has shown me, the hard way, that coddling people like this creates long term problems and lowers the level of conversation greatly.

I wasn't hurt or offended by Steve's comments. I just find it surprising he's willing to risk pushing away some people from buying his product. When one is in a business that depends on paying customers, it's generally nor sound to alienate that customer base.
You make it sound like that there is only one type of paying customer, and that type is whiney and ungreatful. I beg to differ. I think the majority of our customers know that the whiney guys are more often than not wrong about things and that if we listened to them CMBO would never have been made at all. Which reminds me...

I have reminded the backwards thinkers many times now that they were the same voices (in some cases the same POSTERS) that tried to derail CMBO's ground breaking features. Every time I've done this... silence from them. No surprise here... standard operating procedure for backwards thinkers.

Why is it rude to express concern that Steve was rude and insulting? What's wrong with expecting people to have a respectful standard?
You've got it backwards. I am one guy who is constantly bombarded by an array of criticism, much of it (in the case of the PBEM discussion) highly disrespectful and totally without merit. I reacted the way that is in the best interest of the CM community... I stood up for what is right and what will make CMx2 great. You should be thanking me.

I've said this many times in the past... I have two choices, and only two. If someone is disrespectful to myself or BF.C in general I can either ban them or attempt to put them in their place. One or the other. If the will of this community is for me to ban people for expressing ill formed and ill tempered opinions, I could do that and you'd never see another "rude and insulting" post from me ever again. Of course this Forum would cease to be a constructive tool.

Lesson for the day... take the good with the bad. I have to do that every time I come onto this Forum. And like everybody else here, I come here voluntarily and can leave without returning just as you all can.

Steve

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Geeze... more posts from Sanok. Who shot his dog? :D

Just because we feel differently than they, it means we're whiners and complainers?
No, people that feel differently are fine. People that can't accept the fact that they are feeling differently from others, and make post after post after post after post about the same thing over and over and over again after getting a straight answer they don't like are whiners.

Just how does BFC, you, or anyone know there are *likely* ten more that will buy the game for everyone that won't if it has no pbem?
How did we know people wanted 3D and WeGo? If we took a "poll" at various early stages of CMBO, and acted on it, we'd have a 2D computerized version of ASL.

We know our audience better than it knows itself. We've proven this. What's your claim to fame?

PBEM is important, but it is just an extension of the game. Some people seem to think that PBEM is the game, but that is obviously false. We put PBEM into CMx1 games to enhance the game and will put it into CMx2 for the same reason. The game, however, will not be allowed to suffer for that option.

And for the record... when we made CMBO we never intended to have you guys playing it 4 years later. In fact, probably every game company I know of would call it a "mistake". At least at the $45 entry level price point.

Steve

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Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

We know our audience better than it knows itself. We've proven this.

Famous last words. smile.gif

PBEM is important, but it is just an extension of the game. Some people seem to think that PBEM is the game, but that is obviously false.

PBEM is not the game. But without it the desired playability and customer product life is severely hampered. Given the projected ~50$/E price tag at least I personally will have to think twice about buying a game which will have (according to gossip and rumors smile.gif ) only TCP/IP multiplayer capability.

What exactly is your client base ? Teenagers/young adults spending most of their free time on the net playing real time TCP/IP games or middle aged Rommel/Patton-wannabees with limited game session time available to them because of R/L considerations ?

Of course if you plan on making a killing with huge one time sales and very limited follow up and after market "accessorising" and improvement then that is up to you.

I have no problems with healthy greed. But with the pricetag like that I expect I will have to justify pretty well buying it over (say) two Disney DVD's.

We put PBEM into CMx1 games to enhance the game and will put it into CMx2 for the same reason. The game, however, will not be allowed to suffer for that option.

What kind of file size are you/we looking at at the moment, excatly ?

And for the record... when we made CMBO we never intended to have you guys playing it 4 years later. In fact, probably every game company I know of would call it a "mistake". At least at the $45 entry level price point.

Are you "forgetting" the pricetag is still after 4 years that same ~$45 a copy ? Which is not too shabby given the reduction in the prices your competitors have been forced to make. Or who have made their games abandonware or shareware.

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Thanks for the post Steve. I have had my say IFO PBEM and I appreciate you coming back again. Despite everything that is said on the board - the nice thing that we can say is that people are passionate about your games : )

I have considered for some time whether the Company should benefit from a regular injection [retainer] of money from appreciative players. Of the top of my head I wonder whether this comes from running a dedicated server for file transfer and we pay per message (a modest sum) ....

However if the new game engine is all dancing perhaps your new stable of games will free you of financial concerns : )

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Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

PBEM is important, but it is just an extension of the game. Some people seem to think that PBEM is the game, but that is obviously false. We put PBEM into CMx1 games to enhance the game and will put it into CMx2 for the same reason. The game, however, will not be allowed to suffer for that option.

Steve [/QB]

Thankyou.

PBEM isn't 'the game' for me as much as it is just the way I like to play it.

Richie

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Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

[...] when we made CMBO we never intended to have you guys playing it 4 years later. In fact, probably every game company I know of would call it a "mistake". At least at the $45 entry level price point.

And probably very few companies can claim the same. smile.gif Now I see why you want to publish a game every eight months. Clever people these guys.

Cheers

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PBEM is important, but it is just an extension of the game. Some people seem to think that PBEM is the game, but that is obviously false. We put PBEM into CMx1 games to enhance the game and will put it into CMx2 for the same reason. The game, however, will not be allowed to suffer for that option.

-Steve

THERE! he said it

PBEM is in, Full speed ahead and damn the torpedo's

(file size will be a player resolveable problem, NOT a game design limitation.!!) :D

Can someone please tell me why this thread is not locked now?

Its over there is nothing more to see here! Please move on to a more productive thread.

-tom w

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Originally posted by Richie:

Let me see... NARROW MINDED...

Definition says... Not giving a **** about other peoples opinions or a **** about what they think or a **** about what they like...

Now where have I seen that recently?

Some people just choose to be blind.

:D Well... I'd still like some PBEM if you can fit it in please, thanks BFC!

No mate, more like refusing to accept any change or locked into their own belief beyond reason.

BFC has explained multiple times why PBEM may or may not be in the CMx2. And people are still complaining and raising questions that has been fully answered.

Thus, they are blind and/or narrowminded, stuck with their preconcived ideas.

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Originally posted by Wartgamer:

1%???? one percent?

I don't think even BFC believes that.

The number is not correct, only used to communicate that very few of the customer base use PBEM, and even fewer would base their buying decision on its inclusion or lackof.

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

BFC emails people don't they? With announcements and what have you? Why not just send out a poll? They would get a very good feedback as far as who plays in what modes.

Most customers does not frequent these boards (in fact, VERY few do so) or recives emails from BFC. Those that do are more likely to be playing the game with other humans. So, any poll would be skewed.
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Originally posted by Sanok:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GreenAsJade:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sanok:

Why is it that BFC and their shills say garbage like this? . </font>
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Tero,

PBEM is not the game. But without it the desired playability and customer product life is severely hampered.
Here we go again smile.gif What Tero means to say, but like other PBEM fanatics can't remember to say, is this:

PBEM is not the game. But without it the desired playability and customer product life is severely hampered for those who are diehard PBEM players.

The #1 sign of a hardcore customer is one who assumes that ALL (or almost all) players are exactly identical to them and feel exactly the same way. Bad, bad logic. It's the kind of logic that would have kept CMBO from existing since this same mentality was telling us to go back to a 2D hex based environment with chits with great stuff like "8-2-1" displayed on them.

What exactly is your client base ?
Very diverse, unlike the way you and the other PBEM fanatics think. CMBO was a big hit because it crossed a lot of bounds and brought in a wide range of gamers. Even the hardcore Grogs here USED to be at each others throats before CMBO came along (i.e. the old Steel Panthers vs. Close Combat mentality). CM is, therefore, not a hardcore wargame in the sense that it does not appeal to a small, narrow viewpoint group of hardcore gamers as its primary audience. If CM was targeted in that direction I doubt we'd have been in business long. You hardcore Grogs are great... but at $45 you guys aren't large enough to keep the bills paid, not to mention expanding what we are capable of doing.

I have no problems with healthy greed. But with the pricetag like that I expect I will have to justify pretty well buying it over (say) two Disney DVD's.
What a dumb thing to say. How many hours do you think you played CMBO for? What do you think that came out to per hour of enjoyment? Now let's say you get 1/2 the enjoyment out of the next game we make... you can't tell me that the price per hour of entertainment is still lower than any other form of entertainment out there (excluding masturbation, of course smile.gif )

What kind of file size are you/we looking at at the moment, excatly ?
Have you not been paying attention? We haven't a clue and won't have a clue until the game is coded. Anything I say now will be wrong.

Are you "forgetting" the pricetag is still after 4 years that same ~$45 a copy ?

What are you talking about? It's been $20 for a dog's age, and was $35 before that. If you purchase it as part of a multi-purchase bundle it is even cheaper. And you Europeans have the CDV Anthology available too. Having said that, we have avoided the bargain bin. But since the bargain bin is a tool for retail, at the detriment of the developer, everybody here should be happy we've avoided this.

Steve

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Panzer76 summed it up nicely when he said:

BFC has explained multiple times why PBEM may or may not be in the CMx2. And people are still complaining and raising questions that has been fully answered.

When Mom sez you can't have any more candy because it will spoil your dinner, repeatedly pestering her about it is considered... well... childish, whiney, annoying, and above all completely unnecessary.

Andreas, you're wrong of course. When someone has their own opinion, and it happens to be the same as ours, then they are a "shill", "fanboy", "suckup", or what have you. When someone expresses an ill tempered, whiney, ceaseless diatribe they are beyond reproach. They, not you or I, are the only ones entitled to try and shut down conflicting opinions because they are correct.

:D

Seriously, it never ceases to amuse me that the people that complain the loudest about being put down for their opinions are nearly always the only ones putting down other people for their opinions.

Steve

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I think Steve just touched on what many readers of these threads are missing. This forum can only be a small slice of BFCs customer base. Heck, there are under 17,000 registered members. If that's all the copies they've sold it wouldn't be enough to cover the hookers and blow bill let alone develop additional games. My point is that no one on this forum could possibly know what their client base wants or doesn't want. All we can know is what posters on this forum want. One of my best friends has both CMBO and CMBB and has only played a few PBEM games over the years and no TCP that I am aware of.

I learned a long, long, long time ago to trust Steve and Charles' instincts..they are more often than not dead on. I'll happily take whatever they serve up.....I'd rather have PBEM (played daily since 1999) and TCP but I trust that if they determine it would compromise the game then who am I to disagree.

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Facts! We don't want do stinking facts!

We want speculation and innuendo.

We want to beat the dead horse. :rolleyes:

These are the facts.

CMBO was a great game and still is a good game.

CMBB > CMBO

CMAK > CMBB

CM2 will be > CMAK

If you have any doubts then simply don't buy it.

And as Steve said, any way you cut it, $45US/500+ hours = cheap entertainment

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