Brutality in the Desert

[DesertMouse]

There seems to be an impression amongst the public that the African war was largely a cheery affair compared to the other theatres. I have to admit that when I am firing up CMAK I dont feel the same trepidation about my soldiers going into battle as I did playing CMBB.

But this is surely an absolute myth. I have just watched a propaganda film on Youtube about the DAK and even that, staged as it was looked absolutely brutal.

Huge artillery, massive explosions using satchels and charges, dust everywhere, absolutely barren terrain with nothing but insects and dust for miles.

I remember also seeing a film of Rommel talking about the conditions of the battle (I believe at Tobruk but it may have been El Alamein). He is talking in the film and says that the conditions were worse than those in Verdun in WWI. Has anyone else seen this?

Incredible really. What are your thoughts about this?

[David I]

Ya wouldn't want to be there.

DavidI

[Redwolf]

The "positive" comments are related to inter-human relationships and refer to events where enemy soldiers could have been treated more or less brutal.

Examples are not shooting enemy soldiers burying their friends, few sniping, recon units not necessarily seeking mutual destruction, not shooting prisoners that you couldn't take (let them go instead).

The non-human factors such as weapon impacts and environment were more brutal, and not made better by the lack of cover.

[Wicky]

North Africa was a bleedin' holiday camp compared to the Russian Front - Soldiers were either swimming in the Suez canal or drinking chilled lager in Alexandra:

Name me a war movie in which a subordinate German soldier is threatened with being sent to get a tan in Africa instead of snowboarding near Moscow?

Far East wasn't fun cos of the giant ants!

[DesertMouse]

Originally posted by Wicky:

North Africa was a bleedin' holiday camp compared to the Russian Front - Soldiers were either or drinking chilled lager in Alexandra:

Name me a war movie in which a subordinate German soldier is threatened with being sent to get a tan in Africa instead of snowboarding near Moscow?

Far East wasn't fun cos of the giant ants!

I do hope that you are joking? Right?

As for the previous poster, yes that is interesting. Letting captured soldiers go rather than execute them. Im sure that it still happened.

As for the few sniper teams, I wasnt aware of that. I just think that unlike the eastern front, you have no cover, no buildings for refuge field hospitals at the very front, and no water.

So I really dont believe that it was better than eastern front. The dust alone, the disease, and no water.

Im sure that prisoners were shot just like any other theatre.

Getting back to the conditions that Rommel spoke about, it sounded very very bad.

[Wicky]

Tongue in cheek!

However the African desert relative to Eastern Front had a few things going for it i.e if you were taken prisoner

...But the end was inevitable. Outnumbered 5 or 6 to 1, and with very few heavy weapons left, the Axis surrendered on 8 May to the Allies in Tunisia. We marched over a hill to some British tanks, who gave us cigarettes, and we gave them chocolate, and they were very friendly. We were sent to a makeshift POW camp near Bone. In the camps we didn't get too much to eat, so we had to try to get an egg, or some cous-cous from the locals. We then took a ship to Oran. By that time many men had lice, so we were disinfected. The same day, we were loaded onto a couple American ships that were heading back to the US. We arrived in New York on 30 May, 1943. On the voyage though, many had gotten lice again, so we were then disinfected once more.

On June 3, we arrived, via train, in the POW camp in Hunstville, Texas. The camp was divide into 3 areas, and each area held 1200 men. Next to the camp, a sports field had been built. Each prisoner was entideld to eat what a regular soldier eats. We were given enough food, and there were few complaints. At first, there wasn't any real work for us, so we just did small jobs in the camp, like mowing lawns etc., and a few volunteered for the camp fire brigade. We were also allowed to learn several languages (english, french, and spanish), and to read and write, and to study many different topics like math and so on, all organized by the prisoners. There was also a monthly newspaper, put together by the prisoners. There was a chapel, an orchestra, a theater, and once a month there would be a big show, with the band playing, some would sing, and there would be a play or two. In this camp, we ate corn for the first time, as in Germany it was used for feeding chickens.

Interview with an Afrika-korps Infantry Veteran

Compare that recollections from Germans taken prisoner by the Russians or vice versa

Allies had water tasting of petrol which made their brew taste foul but it didn't kill ya like the Germans soldiers found their Stalingrad rations did.

Admittedly the flys feeding off the influx human excrement and dead bodies etc were an abomination of biblical proportion for both sides in the desert.

[ March 23, 2007, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Wicky ]

[DesertMouse]

Yes that example is true - however that was not always the case - on either front. There were a lot of Germans who were spared, but instead of being sent to make munitions in Texas, they were sent to make munitions in the Urals.

I am watching World at War at the moment (the BBC documentary) and the soldiers are saying that the conditions were like WWI conditions. That is what Rommel said (but I cant find the film clip where he said that).

But you have demonstrated my point: that most people regard the desert war as some kind of noble theatre, above the conduct displayed in other theatres.

My point is: that is a fiction.

[ March 23, 2007, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: CousinPeePee ]

[Wicky]

Your quote re Rommel and like WW1 possibly referred to the later Battle of Alamein but the majority of North African desert war was a flux of engagements up and down the coast with allies digging in betwwen.

Physical conditions were rough for the troops at the limit of diet and hydration and access to medical treatment for , but with the absence of the SS it was comparatively a haven of peace and quiet compared to the what occured in other fronts. How in your view was the German POW treated in Russian captivity? as fair as the POW sent to the US?

In another British WW2 made for TV documentary Rommel is said to have "deliberately played the part of noble warrior, appearing in dozens of Nazi propaganda films. He was a war hero and sex symbol."

Is the noble front a myth a relic from past propaganda and recent historical accounts? you must decide wether or not to accept the authors interpretation of events.

"Major Keyes (British Commando - Libya 1941) was buried with full military honors a few days after the fiasco (attack on Rommel's HQ) , side by side with the four men from Rommel’s quartermaster staff who also died. The joint military funeral was symbolic of the chivalry that Rommel encouraged in his men.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Rommel/Rommel_2005_web.pdf Pg 129

Plus take into account Rommel's disobeyance of Hitler's Commando Order of 28 October 1942 and humane treatment of PoWs is to be considered.

[ March 23, 2007, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Wicky ]

[civdiv]

There were a lot of Germans who were spared, but instead of being sent to make munitions in Texas, they were sent to make munitions in the Urals.

Please cite a reference for German POWs being forced to make war-making materials in the US.

civdiv

[Broompatrol]

Under Roosevelt I don't think the labor unions would be very happy about POWS making munitions. And with Patton & MacArthur busy with the war there was nobody left to shoot strikers anymore even if strikes were illegal.

[JasonC]

The heaviest munition made by German POWs in the US was a potato dug out of a field.

[sross]

We had a POW camp near where I grew up in SD. There was also a hand grenade factory nearby. I've read about both and talked to many people who lived in that era and no one ever mentioned any of the POW's working at the hand grenade plant. They were used extensively in the agricultural sectors though. Several even immigrated back to the area after the war was over.

[John Kettler]

CousinPeePee,

From what I've read, heard, and seen in various documentaries, the Desert War not only was markedly more civil than warfare conducted elsewhere, but it was largely conducted without having to worry about civilians, there being few indeed in most of the region contested. Plenty of instances exist in which prisoners were released to return to their own lines, sometimes being given food and water for their trek back, in which doctors and medics from one side tenderly cared for troops from the other, in which the captured and the capturers shared rations, smokes and more,

and I've even seen reports of agreements to call the battle for the evening so that both sides in an armored fight could go into lager for the night, do maintenance, eat and sleep in preparation for resuming the clash the following day.

Such was the fluidity of the battlefield that many generals from both the British and the

German armies alike went into the bag, and at lower levels, being captured and then freed was fairly common, especially for the less mobile forces. I believe this knowledge of how fast the situation could change acted as a powerful incentive to respectful, proper treatment of the captured foe.

As noted above, there was no SS, Waffen or otherwise, no Einsatzgruppen, no SonderKommando, etc., which arguably helped keep things proper and soldierly. Should also note that Rommel was old school on such matters.

Compared to what was going on at the Eastern Front, the War in the Desert was genteel; compared to the War in Europe, considerably less so. It was still war, though.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Andreas]

Originally posted by JasonC:

The heaviest munition made by German POWs in the US was a potato dug out of a field.

All the best

Andreas

[Andreas]

Originally posted by CousinPeePee:

My point is: that is a fiction.

Then I can only suggest you inform yourself about the conditions on the Eastern Front, for both sides. The war in the desert was not boy's own fun, it was still a war, and people got killed, maimed, and diseased in large numbers. But in terms of treatment of POWs and mutual respect, it was vastly above what went on elsewhere. Just compare the end in Tunis to the end in Stalingrad.

The war in Italy was no picknick either, and anything I have read on Normandy suggests it was a deeply unpleasant place during the battle, and that is without anyone shooting at you.

Rommel's quote about El Alamein refers to the barrage which opened on Axis positions at the start of the battle. It was the heaviest barrage in the west since WW I. He would not have seen anything like it in the east either.

All the best

Andreas

[John Kettler]

Andreas,

My German was limited and taken decades ago, but am I correct in concluding that I'm looking at a WW I poster or broadside addressed to farmers and their wives on the subject of German spuds and their importance to the war against England? If I'm reading it correctly, the tone is one of alarm that spud production has plummeted from 1914 to 1917. My guess would be that conscripting all that manpower for the trench slaughter had something to do with the drop!

Regards,

John Kettler

[DesertMouse]

Yes, about the quip re making munitions in Texas, my point really was that they were still captured and used as prisoner labor. Sure, they may not have been making munitions, but they were digging potatoes for the munitions factory workers, or what not. The point I was making was that east front or desert - they were still captured and used as prisoner labor.

I was aware that often soldiers couldnt be processed when captured, and consequently, were let go. That happened everywhere when it was too much bother to feed them and process them. Even in the east front, enemy commanders captured by enemy commanders would not be executed. It did happen in the far east though.

But what also happened was that prisoners would be shot. And to say that this didnt happen in Afrika is simply wrong.

When the enemy put their hands up during an infantry advance only moments after firing their AT gun or MG at the enemy, you can bet that normal infantry in the heat of battle will probably shoot them. That happened in Afrika.

Lack of SS? Well if you mean the Waffen SS, I dont think that makes much difference. Sure, there would be fewer death squads hell bent on execution when there are no SS political commanders around. But the average SS soldier was the same as everyone else - just better equipped. Yes, some units were given extraordinary orders - but that also happened in the Heer and Luftwaffe.

What I think is wrong is to think that these guys were spared more than in any other theatre. Like in any other theatre, you have burning tanks filled with burning flesh, corpses all over the ground. If you think that when you overrun an enemy position in the middle of a battle and you are going to stop firing, just because they put their hands up, thats where I think you are wrong.

Its surely a myth that the desert war was somehow more noble. And this is my point, concentrating on things like letting prisoners go (instead of the full range of what actually happened) leads to error in perception.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by CousinPeePee:

[snips]

Its surely a myth that the desert war was somehow more noble. And this is my point, concentrating on things like letting prisoners go (instead of the full range of what actually happened) leads to error in perception.

I think we've all understood what your point is, and we are now quite familiar with your opinion.

If ever you feel able to support your opinion with any actual evidence, go right ahead and do so. Until then, Andreas' suggestion that you inform yourself a bit better seems to me an excellent one.

All the best,

John.

[John Kettler]

John D Salt,

A marvel of British understatement. Really tickled my funny bone!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Chelt]

Originally posted by Broompatrol:

Under Roosevelt I don't think the labor unions would be very happy about POWS making munitions. And with Patton & MacArthur busy with the war there was nobody left to shoot strikers anymore even if strikes were illegal.

The lack of POWs in American munitions plants is not, you know, a matter of domestic politics. The Hague 1899 and 1907 both forbid the employment of prisoners of war on activities related to military operations.

[The_Enigma]

debunking time

Huge artillery, massive explosions using satchels and charges, dust everywhere, absolutely barren terrain with nothing but insects and dust for miles.

Same for practically all fronts ... your point being?

The point I was making was that east front or desert - they were still captured and used as prisoner labor.

Prisoners sent to POW camps in the UK, Canada and the USA were treated in according to the Geneva convention and were compensated for there work.

I.e. they were paid to work the farms etc

I was aware that often soldiers couldnt be processed when captured, and consequently, were let go. That happened everywhere when it was too much bother to feed them and process them. Even in the east front, enemy commanders captured by enemy commanders would not be executed. It did happen in the far east though.

But on the eastern front, were prisoners exchanged for ciggies?

As for too much bother to feed them etc, while ive been reading on the early campaigns in the desert.

The British high command had just bagged some small port and thousands of Italians.

They got this small port in order as quick as possible to get water forward for both sides.

But what also happened was that prisoners would be shot. And to say that this didnt happen in Afrika is simply wrong.

We dont say that happened. We say the soldiers were treated alot better then other fronts once captured. That soldiers were more human to one another ...

for example, the recon units having an organised ceasefire each night (iirc this was El alamien?)

A hurricane pilot flying over and spotting a bunch of German trucks and radio trucks ... the Germans scatter ... the hurricane doesnt fire ... waddles its wings and circles around giving the guys still trying to get out time before coming in for the kill.

etc etc

But the average SS soldier was the same as everyone else - just better equipped

Bollacks and lets not go there....

Its surely a myth that the desert war was somehow more noble.

In comparison to the Eastern Front '41-'45, the Finnish front, Italy, the balkans, Burma, the pacific islands, Normandy etc

it was more "noble" were the articles of war were observed alot more ... each side wasnt butchering one another after the battle was over etc etc etc

I mean go and look at some of the photos takin of the Italian prisoners in the POW cages ... there smiling ... bet you wouldnt find one of those coming out of the steppes

Getting back to the conditions that Rommel spoke about, it sounded very very bad.

well its a desert ... duh

Although i do remember a remark on how British soldiers got desert sores. There was tounge in cheek name for it, basically bathing with sand!

Only ever seen that one referance to it though ... sounds nasty :eek:

[ March 27, 2007, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: the_enigma ]

[Guest Mike]

Every POW digging up spuds releases someone else to work in a munitions factory.....even if the POW's are only digging up spuds to feed themselves they are still freeing up other labour from that task.

Unles they'er in the USSR of course in which case they are not, 'cos no-one else was going to do it...at least not according to popular myth!

[DesertMouse]

Im sure that on the eastern front cigarettes were exchanged for prisoners. You cannot say that it did not happen. Dont believe that there were only germans v russians there. There were latvians fighting latvians, byelorusians fighting russians, ukranians fighting slovaks, and other people fighting their brothers and distant cousins all because they were pressed into service by the immediate circumstances. If you are talking about Waffen SS guards units exposed to propaganda fighting Russian cavalry, well, even then I am certain that there was quarter given sometimes. Do you really think that the individual soldiers, thrown about by their relative regimes, were not in tune with each other's plight?

When will the nonsense stop about this front being better than that front. It was terrible in North Afrika. Look at the combat footage. Look at youtube. If you were sitting on a Matilda and you knocked out that PzKpfW III, you will say BURN BABY BURN and GOOD SHOT just like in game. You wont let the crew get out in one piece. In fact, your supporting infantry will probably shoot them after being machine gunned by them. That is what they are trained to do and that is what they did so.

Dont let a few examples of goodness make you think that somehow it was safe for all prisoners.

If you want to make comparisons about how bad Russian front was, forget it. The Pacific war was on a totally different scale of hardship and mostly for other reasons - the enemy was the terrain as much as the enemy soldier.

Just stop already with the idea that war in the desert was somehow "more noble" . What utter rubbish. Most of the people involved were subject to the same strains and emotions as in any other front of the war. And performed the same types of acts, perhaps just not recorded on the same scale as they were in other theatres.

[The_Enigma]

Am sorry but your such an idiot.

The war along the North African coast had arty therfore it was not nobel it was deverstating as the Eastern Front.

Thats your entire argument, your talking tripe and not comparing the other factors.

No one is denying that the fighting wasnt just as brutal in the desert as it was in Normandy, Germany or Russia.

What is being said by the nobel remarks are the comments your overlooking or ingorning. The whole idea of the front being more nobel is because its mostly devoid of examples like the below:

For example, 2-3 days in Operation Barbarossa.

Kampfgruppen Raus, 6th Panzer Division.

They are hit hard and pull back across some river leaving the wounded. When the return they are dead and mutliated.

LSSAH, '42 or '43 iirc, Panzer Meyer recalls how they find some of there guys who had been taken prisoner who had been tied or nailed to something and tourtured to death.

Dunkirk - LSSAH troops lob grenades into a barn full of POWs

Normandy - both sides make claims agaisnt the other for shooting POWs, using them as human shields etc

North Africa throughout the Western Desert Campaign (i dont know enough on the Tunisian campaign) is practically devoid of these events.

Instead we have the examples cited above in posts happening.

Combat wise, yes we have field and medium regiments of arty blasting German and Italian units. We have 88s brewing up and destroying whole tank units. Mines killing everyone ... bullets tearing people apart, bad living conditions ... like the rest of the war.

Well no **** thats no surprise!

And performed the same types of acts, perhaps just not recorded on the same scale as they were in other theatres.

(i hate to say this but)read some books then.

3-4 British offical histories devoted to the fighting.

books citing personel quotes. memoirs, anyalis of the battles and campaigns which were fought. Dozens of books and websites dedicated to the most famous of them all - the 7th Armour.

all because they were pressed into service by the immediate circumstances.

Yea they all were pressed into service and noone fought willing ....

[ March 28, 2007, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: the_enigma ]

[bitchen frizzy]

Originally posted by CousinPeePee:

You cannot say that it did not happen.

And performed the same types of acts, perhaps just not recorded on the same scale as they were in other theatres.

In other words you are unwilling/unable to find facts to back up your suppositions.

The weight of historical research and anecdotes of people who had "been there" is very much against you.