HE Effectiveness

[MikeyD]

We've all seen those old movies with sprawling French 'chalets'. All you have to do is roll the gun through the big double 'french doors' from the patio, roll through the dining room to the foyer then up the wide marble staircase, and onto the bedroom balcony. Don't ALL French houses look like that?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

We've all seen those old movies with sprawling French 'chalets'. All you have to do is roll the gun through the big double 'french doors' from the patio, roll through the dining room to the foyer then up the wide marble staircase, and onto the bedroom balcony. Don't ALL French houses look like that?

Only in First Person Shooters.

[flamingknives]

Originally posted by Wartgamer:

The target is 3 D. The group of planes are in space. The tanks are on teh ground. The Planes are at high altitude and the velocity of the shell is correspondingly lower.

First off, both targets are 3d. The difference is that the planes are dispersed about three dimension; windage, elevation and range, while the tanks are more tightly bunched about one, elevation, but are equally spread out on the other two, windage and range.

We can agree that elevation and windage are the easier to control, and range harder, can we not.

What is important for the purposes of controlling the hardest factor, range, that the target is deep from the gun's perspective. This means that errors and random variation are less important.

As for the higher velocity, this may mean that there is greater distance between possible settings, but also that there will be a shrapnel effect covering an area along the line of fire. Shrapnel would be particularly dangerous to unbuttoned British tank crews, as I've seen few (if any) pictures of them wearing tin hats, and the spreading out mitigates ranging errors.

High (i.e. supersonic) velocity also means there is little or no advanced warning.

[Brent Pollock]

Sorry, Mike, forgot to make it clear that I posted this in support of your view, in that some of those blinking little European houses are so tight that they can't even get furniture in and out of some of them, let alone a 6 pdr.

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brent Pollock:

Maybe he's thinking of all those Dutch houses that have winches attached to the second floor because the doors and stairs are so narrow that you have to bring beds 'n' such in through the upstairs window.

But if you've got a small weapon mounted on wheels and towed by a fast tracked vehicle capable of going almost anywhere at relatively good speeds, why would you then winch that same weapon up to a second story, where it could be easily destroyed by enemy gun or shellfire, and be almost impossible to extricate while under that fire?

If anyone has a photo of an ATG being emplaced like this, or reference to it being done, I'd be interested in seeing that. ATGs on second stories is a new one on me. </font>

[Wartgamer]

Just because I need a break from the galactically anally retentive...

Remi Schrijnen

Remi Schrijnen was born 24.12.21 in Kumtich, Flemish regio, Belgium. Freiwilligen Legion 'Flandern' was reorganised into SS-Freiwillgen-Sturmbrigade 'Langemarck', and SS-Sturmmann Schrijnen was assigned to 3.Kp., as an antitank gunner, he had PaK 75 mm number nine. His unit was attached to III.(germ.)SS-Panzerkorps, subordinated to Heeresgruppe Nord.

The following is drawn from Remi's personnal account in G. Williamson's 'Loyalty is my Honour', p. 114;

" [...] From 31.12.43, in the area of Kiev and Zhitomir, the platoon was in action against Soviet T-34 tanks and succeeded in destroying three and driving back four others. From 5-7.1.44, the platoon was in action around Skhudnov. The fighting was furious and losses were high on both sides. On 6.1, the crew of gun number eight were all killed, then gun number seven was also hit and the platoon commander, SS-Oberscharführer Grabmeyer was killed. Soon, gun number nine was the only one left to support the infantry against the enemy tanks. Shortly after its crew also became casulties - only I remained. Orders were given to pull out, but I ignored them and stayed behind. I had to load, aim and fire the gun by myself. Then the Soviet infantry began to attack and there was virtually no one left to stop them. However, a radio operator, who was from the Navy and had been mortally wounded, called down the artillery on his own positions. Behind the Russian infantry were around 30 tanks, including 5 of the new super-heavy Josef Stalin II models. In a furious exchange of fire, I knoced out three Stalins, four T-34's and also managed to put some of the others out of action. Then, from a distance of around 30 m, a Stalin tank scored a direct hit on my gun. The blast threw me some distance and seriously wounded me. I lay there for some time until I was discovered by our own troops during a counterattack later that day. "

This made him the first Fleming to win the Ritterkreuz, and one of the most succesful antitankgunners of the entire war. He would also recieve a promotion to SS-Unterscharführer, and his unit would become 27. SS-Freiwilligen-Panzergrenadierdivision 'Langemarck' on 18.9.44, altough it never numbered more than 3.000 men.

[Wicky]

It doesn't mention what floor of the bungalow it was on when it was knocked out

[Michael Dorosh]

I actually have that book - and am familiar with Schrynen's story. What does this have to do with placing anti-tank guns in houses?

[tar]

I thought it was related to the destroying the gun and not harming the crew part of the thread.

[Wartgamer]

Nothing. Like I said. I needed a break from the Galactically Anally Retentive.

But it is interesting as it does have something to do with the origional thought of this thread. Namely, HE vs. ATG.

[Guest Mike]

Hmmmm...I'm a bit late to this, but it seems to me the answers are all blindingly obvious.

If you want to put somethign into a house that's too big for eth doors (let's say an ATG) then you knock whatever holes are required to get it in wherever you feel you need to.

And if the house stays up after that then voila - ATG in house.

I have no idea whether this was ever done or not, but it would be how I would approach the problem should I ever run into it.

Am I missing something?

[Wartgamer]

I have backed many military trailers into odd places. I guess ATG have special backing up rules that I have not heard about. Does anyone think that backing up an ATG up a short flight of steps would even be that hard? Over a mound of small rubble? Lets face it, Dorosh has made a big deal out of some moot point.

[Gpig]

I think the issue is "if you want to put something into a house."

Like, why would I put this ATG in a house, when in the garden over there, behind that wall would do perfectly fine.

No one is saying it can't be done, it seems. Just that it wasn't done often.

I think.

Gpig

[Wartgamer]

I did not say it was done often.

[Wubbits]

If I wanted to put an ATG into a house I'd just order the NCO in charge of the gun to do it.

Wubs.

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

I had actually read of this very tactic taking place! I'm trying to remember where...

It may have been something about not being able to get a decent shot at a pesky enemy tank up the street (urban fighting). An AT gun was manhandled into a building and up a flight of stairs - with great effort apparently - and was able to get a clear shot at the tank out of a bedroom window.

...at least that's how I recall the tale. I think the story was included because it was such a heroic task to attempt, NOT because if was SOP!

And you are positive the weapon was not a PIAT or something similar? I have enormous difficulty imagining even a 37mm being manhandled up a flight of stairs, assuming the stairs were wide enough. I am sure that determined men in good condition are capable of great feats of strength and dexterity, but this is straining the limits of my credulity.

Michael

[Wartgamer]

Many ETO buildings were quite thick walled. If a building offered an excellent field of fire, and had substantial walls to offer protection, I would venture a guess that it would be worthwhile to emplace a gun inside.

[flamingknives]

But the amount of effort required to fit an ATG of any reasonable size into a thick walled house menas that it would be called a bunker or pillbox

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

But the amount of effort required to fit an ATG of any reasonable size into a thick walled house menas that it would be called a bunker or pillbox

I think that would be equally true of the effort needed to get it back out of the house once it was in.

[Wartgamer]

The G.A.R. are out in force.

Most Bunkers/Pillboxes have very substantial roofs. The same can not be said of most buildings.

Clearly the G.A.R. are grasping.

On to other matters...

Remi Schrijnen

His account would seem impossible under present CM design. A lone ATG facing any number of AFV is borg spotted and blasted to pieces.

The fact that his ATG was hit by a 122mm round, and he survived, is quite remarkable. Surely not a typical account but revealing none the less.

[Wartgamer]

This is an example of a dug in 75mm ATG.

Did you see any of these antitank guns?

Not a great deal; only after I got behind them.

How close were you then?

It could not have been more than thirty yards.

Did you hit it?

Yes, with the 75-mm gun. We had to get one out in a hurry, as I figured he may do some more damage. It may have been useless expenditure of ammunition, but we had been expending it before. At a time like this we were always taught to shoot to kill, and it being the first German I had seen, I thought to dispose of him was the main thing, and we did. We wanted to get the gun out of action. I saw it before I left, and it was burning, which satisfied me.

Did you go back to the gun the next day?

Yes, it was out of action.

[flamingknives]

Thank you for providing two accounts of direct hits on anti-tank guns by direct-fire HE. This is, to my understanding, one of the points I and others were arguing for and, unless I am much mistaken, you were arguing against.

Furthermore, if you're going to the effort of emplacing a gun in a house, you might as well put some overhead cover on it. Any soldier facing such a position would almost certainly describe it as a bunker or pillbox.

[Wartgamer]

Yes you are mistaken. Sorry you can't follow the thread. Perhaps you should keep your FlaK 'asides' to yourself?

Both accounts are at unbelievably close range.

[Wartgamer]

For those of you who are interested in the 88mm fuse setting...

It appears settable from 0-350 degrees. In increments of 0.5 degrees. These 'degrees' apparently correspond to 0.05 seconds (1/20th sec).

When firing nearly vertical, it maxes out at about 9900 m or so. When firing horizontal it maxes out at 10750 meters (350 setting). The gun can shoot a shell further than this horizontally but not vertically.

35 'degrees' is about 1350m and 45 degrees is about 1950 m. There could be 20 settings between these two so 600m/20= 30m 'granularity'. About 100 feet. Not enough to really target a tank directly but good enough to threaten unbuttoned crewmen and boots on the ground.

Information from text and charts from

Enemy Weapons

The War Office 1943

[Wartgamer]

Worst case?

Compare shield height and gun barrel height?

[Wartgamer]

FlaK guns in buildings?

The 10th Motorized Division's report' explained how, in preparing to defend a village strongpoint, officers began by surveying the available buildings to identify those best suited for defensive use. Houses that did not aid in the defense were razed, both to deny the Red Army future use of them as shelter and also to improve German observation and fields of fire, Houses selected as fighting positions were then transformed into miniature fortresses capable of all-around defense: snow was banked against the outer walls and sheathed with ice, overhead cover was reinforced, and firing embrasures were cut and camouflaged with bedsheets. When available, multibarreled 20-mm flak guns were integrated into the defense in special positions, which consisted. of houses with their roofs purposely torn off, the floors reinforced (to hold the additional weight of guns and ammunition), and the exterior walls covered with a snow-and-ice glacis to gun-barrel height. These "flak nests" helped keep both Soviet aircraft and infantry at bay.62