Günzel for Kanzler Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Hi, recently I discovered that it seems to be almost impossible to mow down infantry by HE fire. But hey, isnt HE deadly stuff? Some HE examples I saw: -A little bunch of 6 engineers decides to flee from advancing Brummbär tanks. Brummbärs are "just" six, and they are 100-50 metres away from 6 engineers standing, walking and running in rocks. The engineers stop hiding, and six Brummbär units toss their 150MM HE at them. Guess what, three engineers escape after running a distance of 100 metres, while 150mm explodes all around them. -One 20x10 metres patch of scattered trees got filled up to its brim with russian soldiers by some opponent who wants to overrun two trenches filled with a quality HQ and one fusilier platoon. Some russians attack via open ground, and the platoon manages to create three "dead ants"/contorted corpses in the open. Could ahve been two more. Soon things get a little hot for the trench, but the smoke the opponent placed clears up, so I happily point two 150mm infantry guns at the patch, and they place 4 HE right into the mids of it. Of 12-14 troops just 4 troops head back or panic, while the rest decide to hug the ground, half of them lying ridiculous 1-7 metres away from the impacts. Not even one ant, no pain/death screams. -Third, a IS-2 fires one less well aimed 120mm HE shot at a 150mm IG in a trench. The impact hits 11-14 metres apart from the gun in trench. The gun gets "knocked out", but the crew is alive 100%. Now, if 120mm kills off steel made guns in trenches at 11m, but 4x150mm doesnt kill any human troops in scattered trees at 1-4m, theres really something wrong, isnt it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnglishRanger Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 HE doesn't always work in real life. In 2003 we took over a strategic location in Iraq. We held it over 10 days before being relieved, we were hit by mortars and artillery for the first few days. Over 300 rounds were counted to hit the dam, numerous others were close. We had 2 guys wounded although one was serious. One WP round landed about 3 meters from my Alpha Team leader. He was knocked over but didn't even loose his eyebrows, all the splash went away from him. The largest guns we found later had been fired at us were 105s, 130s and a single 152mm howitzer. We talked to prisoners and they too didn't believe their stuff was so ineffective. But it happens. [ August 30, 2004, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: EnglishRanger ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Suggest you do some test vs. the AI to find out how it works. I had a QB recentyl where a single 150mm sIG counted for 900 casualties. So HE works - especially vs bunched up units. Given that 70% of the AI's men were casualties at the end, there were only 30-40% eliminated teams/squads. 150mm fire was around turn 10 - it took some time till I counterattacked and found how fragile the AI spearhead was. The number of kills my armor scored did not match the lots of eliminated markers they left on their rampage. Most of the squads they engaged must have taken a beating. And this might be your problems: A squad is not bunched up where the marker is. It is spread out around the marker (call it center of mass). Survivors might lie a bit further apart. You don't see dead soldiers - only dead units. Units die with the last man. The bigger the squad, the easier it is to score a casuality. Remnants of squads are really stubborn and drain lots of ammo. So while your 4 shots did some damage, this damage was done in good cover -and it won't necessarily eliminate units (unless there are some small teams there). Most of them will be pinned. Add another 4 rounds next turn and they'll be broken. It will take a while till they decide to leave good cover and head back into the open. Having 150mm rounds heading towards you in good cover is better than having them on your heels in the open. Add 1-2 81mm mortars for treebursts and they'll panic faster. Treebursts tell the troops trees are worse cover than the open fields. Plus panic is a function of the amount of incoming over time. If you spread 100 rounds over 50 turns, only a few will panic. Concentratee it in 10 turns and most will panic rather quickly. Add some attacking infantry or armor and they will start to run. Re: Brummbärs: Hey, you got 50% kills on a moving, zig-zagging target. That's not ineffective. But I found that the best AP weapon on a tank is the MG at below 150m. That's why the Brits had no AP rounds in early war tanks and the Germans had the PzI. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexei Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Originally posted by Joachim: Add 1-2 81mm mortars for treebursts and they'll panic faster. Treebursts tell the troops trees are worse cover than the open fields. Is it really modeled in the game??? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Yes 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Günzel for Kanzler Posted August 30, 2004 Author Share Posted August 30, 2004 >Suggest you do some test vs. the AI to find out >how it works. I did. A shooting ground with maximum exposure and no exit showed the same ineffectiveness of large HE in CM. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 After playing CM since the beta demo I really can't support your claims. HE, especially 105mm and bigger is absolutely deadly against infantry. Keep in mind what Joachim has pointed out: the little soldier figures in CM are only a grafical representation of a squad that in reality is dispersed and not lumped together. And CM models this. I'd be interested in the results of your tests since I sincerely doubt they will show the 'ineffectiveness' of large HE rounds. BTW what does the "besetztes deutsches Reich" as location in your profile mean ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Originally posted by Alexei: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joachim: Add 1-2 81mm mortars for treebursts and they'll panic faster. Treebursts tell the troops trees are worse cover than the open fields. Is it really modeled in the game??? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FM Paul Heinrik Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Originally posted by ParaBellum: After playing CM since the beta demo I really can't support your claims. HE, especially 105mm and bigger is absolutely deadly against infantry.I agree HE does work. A few times I thought it should/would have done more damage, but generally big calibre HE will send the infantry and the armor packing. How do you make a "tree burst" attack? Is it built into the modeling or do you command it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Günzel for Kanzler Posted August 30, 2004 Author Share Posted August 30, 2004 >the little soldier figures in CM are only a >grafical representation of a squad Well, maybe I was misled by extreme fov and unit squares not showing men count. I will ask him later, cant be too long with all his IS-2 sacrificed to little 75mm PAKs. The location note, thats where I live. Its sort of a banana republic, occupied by enemy forces since 59 years. That does not mean troops alone, but rater secret service-facilities, half- and topsecret enslavement laws/contracts negotiated with "german" politicians, Mossad with an own agency and totally free to operate without informing german intelligence police or whatever, Echelon, and the like. Theres way more to that, but to people who dont dig into that this strongly contradicts their beliefs about todays germany being a free country. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Originally posted by FM Paul Heinrik: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ParaBellum: After playing CM since the beta demo I really can't support your claims. HE, especially 105mm and bigger is absolutely deadly against infantry.I agree HE does work. A few times I thought it should/would have done more damage, but generally big calibre HE will send the infantry and the armor packing. How do you make a "tree burst" attack? Is it built into the modeling or do you command it? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Originally posted by Günzel for Kanzler: The location note, thats where I live. Its sort of a banana republic, occupied by enemy forces since 59 years. That does not mean troops alone, but rater secret service-facilities, half- and topsecret enslavement laws/contracts negotiated with "german" politicians, Mossad with an own agency and totally free to operate without informing german intelligence police or whatever, Echelon, and the like. Theres way more to that, but to people who dont dig into that this strongly contradicts their beliefs about todays germany being a free country. Ok, that just confirms by suspicion, thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Schoerner? That you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 He forgot to rant about the plutocratic dictatorships in cooperation with the zionist capitalists imposing their evil interest-based economy system on the oppressed and enslaved germans. Please excuse me for a moment while I contact my local Mossad agent. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brent Pollock Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 ...and it is more likely to occur with indirect rather than direct fire, due to the former plunging down through the tree canopy. Originally posted by stikkypixie: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by FM Paul Heinrik: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ParaBellum: After playing CM since the beta demo I really can't support your claims. HE, especially 105mm and bigger is absolutely deadly against infantry.I agree HE does work. A few times I thought it should/would have done more damage, but generally big calibre HE will send the infantry and the armor packing. How do you make a "tree burst" attack? Is it built into the modeling or do you command it? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Originally posted by ParaBellum: Please excuse me for a moment while I contact my local Mossad agent. What is it now, ParaBellum? This had better be important, as I was in the middle of oppressing someone... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 also the little men in CMBB. why do they not have a commissar unit to follow behind & spread evil propaganda that The Fuhrer attacked first? WHAT ABOUT THE SOVIET BATTALIONS AT THE BORDER? <font size="-3">dammit where does all this spittle come from?</font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by Other Means: also the little men in CMBB. why do they not have a commissar unit to follow behind & spread evil propaganda that The Fuhrer attacked first? WHAT ABOUT THE SOVIET BATTALIONS AT THE BORDER? <font size="-3">dammit where does all this spittle come from?</font> SILENCE! I am communing with the soul of Papa Joe Stalin, e'en as we type. Hmm. It's a little unclear. Something about 'hot Indian pickle relish' and blonde girls... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand digger Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 The other point Gunzel made is valid ie guns get knocked out, crews survive. Probably not relevant as to the practical effect though - the gun is unable to continue firing for some reason or other 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by Redwolf: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Alexei: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joachim: Add 1-2 81mm mortars for treebursts and they'll panic faster. Treebursts tell the troops trees are worse cover than the open fields. Is it really modeled in the game??? </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Günzel for Kanzler Posted August 31, 2004 Author Share Posted August 31, 2004 "He forgot to rant about XYZ" I stopped at the point were I typed enough for anyone curious, for the very unlikely case you were curious instead of ignorant/prejudiced. Adding more detail would have triggered nothing but more derogatory comments from wise asses' who dont dare risking loss of their face by openly deviating from mainstream history. Over and out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 It is him, isn't it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joachim Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Originally posted by sand digger: The other point Gunzel made is valid ie guns get knocked out, crews survive. Probably not relevant as to the practical effect though - the gun is unable to continue firing for some reason or other The crew just wasn't there. Somewhere on the web there is a source stating that while his Soviet AT btn regularly got new guns, they seldom got replacements. To fire the gun, only the loader and the gunner were necessary - and usually not at the same time but alternating. Others would try to stay away from that bullet magnet. Check the "Truth about AT gun" or sumfink thread. Gruß Joachim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seanachai Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 Originally posted by flamingknives: It is him, isn't it? Has to be. Posts exactly like him. A broken heart is like a Nazi And a Nazi's like the blues The fuerher that you have The fuerher you have to lose... (He Would Have Loved You) More Than Eva Braun -Danny O'Keefe 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monty's Double Posted September 1, 2004 Share Posted September 1, 2004 Poke it again, see if it makes that funny noise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.